> >> NOW TO GUN VIOLENCE IN AMERICA.

ACCORDING TO THE CDC, ROUGHLY 130 PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY GUNS EVERY DAY, AND TWICE AS MANY ARE SHOT AND WOUNDED.

MEANWHILE, FIREARMS REMAIN THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR YOUNG CHILDREN AND TEENS IN THE U. S. THIS IS A DISTURBING REALITY YET LITTLE PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE IN PREVENTING MORE TRAGEDIES.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, AUTHOR MALCOLM GLADWELL ARGUES THAT THE FALSE NARRATIVE SURROUNDING THE GUN DEBATE MAY HAVE STALLED DECISIVE SAFEGUARDING MEASURES, AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO CHALLENGE THEM.

>> BIANNA, THANKS.

MALCOLM GLADWELL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOUR LATEST BOOK IS CALLED "THE AMERICAN WAY OF KILLING: THE INVENTION OF AN EPIDEMIC. "

YOU REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT THIS SORT OF GUN DEBATE THAT WE'VE HAD FOR SO MANY YEARS NOW.

WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE ABOUT HOW WE DISCUSS THIS TOPIC?

>> YES, THE THEME OF THE BOOK IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST IN THE WAY THAT AMERICANS TALK ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE.

AND BY DISHONEST, I DON'T MEAN DELIBERATELY DECEPTIVE.

I MEAN THERE ARE SO MANY KIND OF FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, SO MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS, SO MUCH KIND OF DELIBERATE AVOIDANCE OF DIFFICULT TRUTHS THAT IT'S JUST IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A STRAIGHT FORWARD CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO END THIS PUBLIC HEALTH DISASTER.

>> YOU WRITE THAT A CONVERSATION THAT STARTS WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS CAN BECOME DISHONEST FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS.

WHEN EITHER SIDE PRETENDS THAT SOMETHING IS CONSEQUENTIAL WHEN IT IS NOT, WHEN EITHER SIDE AVOIDS THE RIGHT CONCLUSION BECAUSE IT IS DIFFICULT, OR WHEN EITHER SIDE BLINDS ITSELF TO THE TRUTH THROUGH LAZINESS OR INDIFFERENCE.

THE AMERICAN CONVERSATION ABOUT GUNS IS RIFE WITH THESE KIND OF DISHONESTIES.

LET'S GET INTO A COUPLE OF THESE DISHONESTIES THAT I THINK A LOT OF TIMES WE ALMOST USE THEM AS SHORTHANDS.

AND YOU'RE SAYING A LOT OF THESE ARE WRONG.

>> YEAH.

A GOOD EXAMPLE WOULD BE THAT AMERICANS HAVE THIS NOTION OF THEMSELVES THAT IT'S OVERPOLICED.

AND CONSERVATIVES LIKE THAT AND LIBERALS THINK IT'S A PROBLEM.

IN FACT, AMERICA IS NOT OVERPOLICED.

WE ARE DRAMATICALLY UNDERPOLICED RELATIVE TO OUR PEERS AROUND THE WORLD.

THE EXAMPLE I GIVE IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES HAS ON A GOOD DAY 8500 POLICE OFFICERS.

BERLIN IN GERMANY, WHICH IS THE SAME SIZE AS L. A. HAS 18,000 POLICE OFFICERS.

AND THAT'S TYPICAL.

YOU GO DOWN THE LIST OF AMERICAN CITIES, YOU WILL SEE THAT ON AVERAGE, WE HAVE HALF AS MANY POLICE PER CAPITA AS MANY OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES.

WHAT WE DO IS, THE DIFFERENCE IS EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND AMERICAN COUNTRIES SPEND THE SAME AM AMOUNT OF MONEY ON PUBLIC SAFETY, BUT WE SPEND ALL OUR MONEY ON PRISONS AND A LITTLE BIT ON POLICE, AND THEY DO THE OPPOSITE IN EUROPE.

A LOT ON POLICE, A LITTLE ON PRISONS.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE IF THEY WERE --IF THE QUESTION WAS POSED TO THEM THAT WAY WOULD PREFER THE AMERICAN MODEL TO THE EUROPEAN MODEL.

IT MAKES FAR MORE SENSE TO PUT YOUR RESOURCES INTO PREVENTION OF CRIME AND PUBLIC DISORDER THAN IT IS IN JUST DEALING WITH THE AFTEREFFECTS.

SO WE'VE -- BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T UNDERSTOOD A VERY BASIC FACT ABOUT OUR POLICING, WE'VE HAD A KIND OF PHONY CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT'S WRONG AND HOW TO FIX IT.

THAT'S JUST ONE OF NUMEROUS EXAMPLES I THINK OF HOW WE LEAD OURSELVES ASTRAY.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT FLINT, MICHIGAN.

YOU'RE SAYING THE CONSEQUENCE OF WHAT WE'RE CALLING THE UNDERPOLICING IS A DIFFERENT TYPE OF BEHAVIOR.

>> MANY PEOPLE HAVE ACCURATELY, PARTICULARLY THOSE ON THE LEFT, HAVE ACCURATELY DEALT WITH ON THE FACT THAT AMERICAN POLICE ARE FAR MORE VIOLENT THAN THEIR COUNTERPARTS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THE ASSUMPTION HAS BEEN OH, WE'RE -- OUR POLICE ARE VIOLENT BECAUSE THERE'S TOO MANY OF THEM.

IN FACT, THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.

THERE IS A WONDERFUL STUDY DONE BY TWO PEOPLE AT HARVARD WHERE THEY SIMPLY TAKE A LOOK AT ALL OF THE POLICE VOICES, ALL THE COUNTRIES, A GOOD SAMPLE OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD AND RANKED THEM BY HOW MANY POLICE THEY HAVE PER CAPITA.

THEN THEY LOOK AT THE LEVELS OF POLICE VIOLENCE IN ALL THOSE COUNTRIES, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY THE POLICE, HOW MUCH EXCESS FORCE IS USED.

AND WHAT THEY FIND IS YOU SEE POLICE VIOLENCE IN EXCESS FORCE IN THE COUNTRIES WITH THE LOWEST NUMBERS OF POLICE, AND YOU SEE THE FEWEST, YOU SEE THE BEST BEHAVED POLICE IN THE DONEES WITH THE MOST POLICE, WHICH IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, MAKES SENSE, THAT THE USE OF FORCE BY POLICE, AGGRESSION BY POLICE IS A RESPONSE TO BEING OVERWHELMED AND UNDERMANNED.

THAT IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH POLICE ON THE GROUND THAT THEY CAN GET TO KNOW THE COMMUNITY, THAT THEY CAN DO MORE THAN SIMPLY DRIVE IN THEIR CARS FROM ONE EMERGENCY TO THE OTHER, THEN YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO HAVE A REAL RELATIONSHIP DEVELOP BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO IT'S NOT A CASE WHERE WE HAVE MISDIAGNOSED OUR PROBLEM.

WE'VE LOOKED AT POLICE VIOLENCE AND SAID DEFUND THE POLICE.

WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THE OPPOSITE.

LOOKED AT POLICE VIOLENCE AND SAID WE NEED MORE OF THEM.

>> SO WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN FLINT?

A LOT OF PEOPLE BUILD THIS IDEA THAT THE POLICE ARE VIOLENT AND THAT THEY'RE AGGRESSIVE WHEN THEY DON'T NEED TO BE BASED ON THE ACTIONS THAT THEY MAY HAVE SEEN IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS ARE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS AN UNDERPOLICED DEPARTMENT.

WHAT'S HAPPENING -- >> DEMILITARIZED.

FLYNT IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF A POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT IS SO --IF YOU LOOK AT THE PER CAPITA POLICE IN FLINT, IT'S SO LOW AS TO BE ASTONISHING.

AND IF YOU HAVE SO FEW POLICE GOVERNING SO MANY PEOPLE, YOU REALLY --I MEAN, NOT AN ALTERNATIVE, BUT THE INEVITABLE RESULT IS THAT THE POLICE BECOME MILITARIZED.

THEY BEHAVE LIKE AN OCCUPYING ARMY.

THAT'S WHAT ARMYS DO WHEN THEY INVADE A COUNTRY.

THEY'RE MASSIVELY OVERMANNED.

AND SO THEY RESPOND BY PROJECTING THEIR POWER IN THE MOST KIND OF AGGRESSIVE WAY IMAGINABLE.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE THAT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE BEING KILLED BY GUNS IS GOING DOWN, AND YOU USE MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE TO REALLY POINT TO SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE DON'T RECOGNIZE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING IN MEMPHIS?

OR WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN MEMPHIS, AND WHY?

>> SO MEMPHIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENED ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHICH IS ANOTHER COMMON MISUNDERSTANDING WE HAVE.

THE HOMICIDE RATE IS A FUNCTION OF TWO FACTORS.

ONE IS THE LEVEL OF LETHAL VIOLENCE, RIGHT.

>> HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING SHOT, AND ALSO IS ACCESS TO QUALITY MEDICAL CARE, RIGHT.

IF I'M UP IN THE HUDSON VALLEY.

IF YOU SHOOT ME RIGHT NOW, IT'S GOING TO TAKE ME AT LEAST AN HOUR TO GET TO A LEVEL 1 TRAUMA CENTER, AND PROBABLY THE AMBULANCE IS GOING TO TAKE 20 MINUTES TO GET HERE, HALF AN HOUR.

THAT'S 90 MINUTES.

IF YOU SHOOT ME ON YORK AND 68th IN MANHATTAN, STEPS FROM A LEVEL 1 TRAUMA CENTER, I'M GOING SURVIVE, RIGHT.

THE SAME BULLET THAT WOULD KILL ME IN UPSTATE NEW YORK, I WILL SURVIVE IN MIDTOWN MANHATTAN.

IN UPSTATE NEW YORK, THAT'S A HOMICIDE.

IN MANHATTAN, THAT'S AGGRAVATED ASSAULT.

RIGHT.

THE DIFFERENCE IS NOT THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE.

THE DIFFERENCE IS THE QUALITY AND ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN AMERICA OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF GENERATIONS IS THAT OUR ABILITY TO QUICKLY OFFER HIGH QUALITY MEDICAL CARE TO GUNSHOT VICTIMS HAS GONE UP DRAMATICALLY.

MEMPHIS BEING A GOOD EXAMPLE.

THERE IS A FAMOUS STUDY A COUPLE YEARS BACK FROM A MEMPHIS, A BIG RESEARCH HOSPITAL IN MEMPHIS WHICH TALKED ABOUT HOW EVEN THOUGH THE NUMBER AND SEVERITY OF GUNSHOT WOUNDS THEY ARE SEEING IS GOING UP, THE DEATH RATE FROM PEOPLE BEING SHOT IS GOING DOWN.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE HOW GOOD THEY'VE BECOME AT TREATING POTENTIALLY LETHAL INJURIES.

>> YOU POINT OUT MULTIPLE WAYS IN THE BOOK THAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE KILLED BY GUNS ARE THEMSELVES.

THAT SUICIDE IS AN INCREDIBLY LARGE NUMBER OF THE HORRIBLE STATISTICS THAT WE HAVE AT THE END OF THE YEAR.

BUT YOU ALSO POINT OUT THERE IS KIND OF TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF VIOLENCE THAT WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT.

EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INSTRUMENTAL VIOLENCE AND EXPRESSIVE VIOLENCE.

>> YOU CAN BROADLY GROUP HOMICIDES INTO TWO CATEGORIES.

ONE IS INSTRUMENTAL.

AND THAT IS A HOMICIDE COMMITTED OR VIOLENCE COMMITTED IN THE COURSE OF SOME OTHER RATIONAL END.

I'M TRYING TO ROB A BANK.

THE GUARD GETS IN THE WAY, I SHOOT HIM.

I HAVE A DRUG TERRITORY.

SOMEONE'S TRYING TO STEAL MY DRUG TURF FROM ME, I DEFEND IT BY SHOOTING THE PERSON.

THAT'S INSTRUMENTAL VIOLENCE.

EXPRESSIVE VIOLENCE IS YOU AND I ARE HAVING AN ARGUMENT.

YOU HARM MY SISTER.

I'M OUTRAGED.

I PULL OUT A GUN AND I SHOOT YOU.

I'M NOT THINKING THAT THROUGH.

THE VIOLENCE IS THE POINT.

IT'S NOT A KIND OF STRATEGY USED IN PURSUIT OF SOME OTHER END.

AND IF I -- IT'S VIOLENCE THAT HAPPENS IN THE MOMENT.

I'M ANGRY.

MY LEVELS OF CORTISOL AND ADRENALINE HAVE SHOT UP.

I'M NOT THINKING STRAIGHT.

I'M PROBABLY GOING TO REGRET DOING IT LIKE TEN SECONDS AFTER I SHOOT YOU.

AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF --WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A HOMICIDE PROBLEM IN AMERICA, WHAT KIND OF HOMICIDE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT.

IF YOU WATCH "LAW & ORDER," ALL YOU SEE ARE INSTRUMENTAL HOMICIDES.

THERE IS ALWAYS A MOTIVE AND A POINT BEHIND.

IN REAL LIFE, THAT'S NOT WHAT HOMICIDE IS.

HOMICIDE IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD AND NOT JUST NOW, BUT GOING BACK FOR AS LONG AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HOMICIDES IS OVERWHELMINGLY EXPRESSIVE.

IT'S PEOPLE IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT TRYING TO SETTLE SOME DISPUTE OR GRIEVANCE WITH THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE.

AND ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S WHAT IT IS, YOU REALIZE THAT THE POTENTIAL AVENUES AVAILABLE FOR ADDRESSING GUN VIOLENCE ARE VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE TYPICALLY DISCUSS AMONGST OURSELVES WHEN IT COMES TO REDUCING VIOLENCE.

>> SO IF THIS IS THAT IMPULSIVE BEHAVIOR, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE BRAIN THAT'S DIFFERENT, THAT DOESN'T RESPOND TO THIS IDEA THAT LISTEN, IF I DO THIS RIGHT NOW IN THIS PARKING LOT OVER THIS SCUFFLE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT I SHOULD GET THE SPOT VERSUS YOU, THAT THERE IS THIS 40- YEAR SENTENCE.

MY ENTIRE SOCIAL WORLD IS GOING TO COLLAPSE.

I'M GOING HAVE TO SPEND YEARS IN A LITTLE BOX.

THOSE ARE ALL CONSEQUENCES THAT OUR SOCIETY HAS SET UP THAT SAYS DON'T DO THIS THING.

THOSE ARE THE DISINCENTIVES.

WHAT IS HAPPENING WHEN OUR IMPULSIVE REACTION IS TAKING OVER AND WE'RE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING ALL THAT?

>> THIS IS A CLASSIC CASE OF THE KIND OF CARE WE HAVE IMAGINED FOR GUN VIOLENCE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO THE DISEASE.

THE PERSON WHO IS IN THAT MOMENT AND SHOOTING SOMEBODY IN AN ARGUMENT OVER SOME SORT OF SIMMERING EMOTIONAL DISPUTE IS NOT CALCULATING THE COST OF THEIR BEHAVIOR.

THEY'RE NOT RESPONDING TO A RECENT CHANGE IN, YOU KNOW, SENTENCING GUIDELINES FROM FEDERAL JUDGES.

THEY'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO SPEND 30 YEARS BEHIND BARS.

THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT RESOLVING THE SOCIAL CIRCUMSTANCE IN FRONT OF THEM.

AND ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU REALIZE THAT WE'VE BEEN, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT WE GROUP UNDER GETTING TOUGH ON CRIME AREN'T RELEVANT TO THE CRIME THAT WE'RE TRYING TO REDUCE, RIGHT.

ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT SOMETHING LIKE HOMICIDE IS LARGELY EXPRESSIVE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT APPROACH AND LANGUAGE FOR DEALING WITH THIS KIND OF DISORDER.

>> YOU POINT OUT SOME PROGRAMS THAT ARE ACTUALLY WORKING.

ONE IS A PROGRAM IN I THINK IT'S IN CHICAGO THAT'S USING COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY WITH KIDS.

EXPLAIN.

>> IT ALL BEGINS --IT IS A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT ARE BEING PURSUED WITH GREAT THINGS, STRATEGIES.

AND THEY ALL PROCEED FROM THE ASSUMPTION THAT WHAT WE HAVE IS A MOMENT, A SOCIAL SITUATION THAT IS EXPLOSIVE.

AND WE HAVE YOUNG PEOPLE, TYPICALLY YOUNG MEN WHO ARE INCAPABLE OF NAVIGATING THAT MOMENT SUCCESSFULLY.

SO FROM THAT, MANY PEOPLE HAVE STARTED TO SAY OKAY, WHAT HOMICIDE PREVENTION SHOULD LOOK LIKE THEN IS SOME FORM OF INTERVENTION THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO GET THROUGH THAT MOMENT.

BALTIMORE IS THE AMERICAN CITY THAT HAS REDUCED ITS HOMICIDE RATE EXTRAORDINARILY OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.

THEIR WHOLE STRATEGY IS THEY EXAMINE CLOSELY A SHOOTING.

THEY LOOK AT THE SOCIAL CONNECTIONS AMONG THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THAT SHOOTING, AND THEY LITERALLY GO AND MY BEST FRIEND GOT SHOT.

SO THEY COME AND VISIT ME THE NEXT DAY, AND THEY SAY MALCOLM, I KNOW YOU'RE THINKING OF RETALIATING.

I KNOW THAT YOU POSTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT YOU'RE OUT TO GET WHOEVER SHOT MY BEST FRIEND.

DON'T.

WORK WITH US.

YOU KNOW, TELL US ABOUT YOUR LIFE.

TELL US HOW WE CAN HELP YOU.

HERE IS A PASTOR FROM YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD WHO YOU'VE KNOWN YOUR WHOLE LIFE.

HE IS GOING TO COME AND HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE WITH YOU AND SORT OF WORK YOU THROUGH THIS MOMENT.

THOSE KIND OF INTERVENTIONS ALLOWED BALTIMORE TO LOWER ITS HOMICIDE RATE FROM 350 PEOPLE A YEAR.

THIS YEAR THEY COULD BE UNDER 100.

IT'S AN ASTONISHING TURNAROUND.

AND IT'S ALL ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF PERSONAL INTERVENTIONS.

THE THING YOU TALK ABOUT IN CHICAGO IS A SIMILAR PROGRAM THAT'S SORT OF UPSTREAM EVENT THAT JUST TAKES YOUNG HIGH SCHOOL MEN AND OVER THE COURSE OF A YEAR GIVES THEM AN EXTEND KIND OF COURSE IN CONTROLLING THEIR EMOTIONS.

UNDERSTANDING THEIR EMOTIONS, LEARNING HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM EFFECTIVELY, LEARNING HOW TO MANAGE CONFLICT.

TEACHING THEM THE KIND OF SKILLS THEY WILL NEED WHEN THEY'RE IN THOSE HIGHLY EMOTIONALLY VOLATILE SITUATIONS.

THAT PROGRAM HAS BEEN EMPIRICALLY TESTED AND IS SHOWN TO HAVE DRAMATIC REDUCTIONS IN LEVELS OF CRIMINAL VIOLENCE.

>> SO MUCH OF OUR CONVERSATION IN THE UNITED STATES ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE ENDS UP FOCUSING ON THE TYPE OF WEAPONS USED.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE WRONG GUNS.

WHY?

>> YEAH, AT THE BEGINNING OF AMERICA I GO TO A SHOOTING RANGE IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH A GUN EXPERT AND WHO SHOWS ME HOW TO SHOOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE.

AND HE THEN SORT OF INTRODUCES ME TO ASSAULT RIFLES AND WALKS ME THROUGH WHAT THEY DO, WHAT THEY'RE LIKE.

A AND THE POINT OF THAT CHAPTER IS WE HAVE SPENT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME AND ENERGY IN THIS COUNTRY ON ASSAULT RIFLE BANS.

AND IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY AT THOSE BANS, YOU REALIZE THEY DON'T ACTUALLY BAN ASSAULT RIFLES.

WHAT THEY DO IS THEY BAN CERTAIN KIND OF COSMETIC ATTACHMENTS THAT YOU CAN PUT ON AN ASSAULT RIFLE THAT MAKES IT LOOK UGLIER, OR SCARIER, OR COOLER, DEPENDING ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

THEY DON'T --AT THE END OF EVERY ASSAULT RIFLE BAN, THERE IS AN APPENDIX THAT LISTS ALL OF THE RIFLES THAT ARE UNAFFECTED BY THE BAN.

IN SOME CASES, THE APPENDIX RUNS FOR 20 PAGES.

IT'S LIKE THE WHOLE THING IS CRAZY.

AND MORE THAN THAT, WE GREATLY OVERESTIMATE THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ASSAULT RIFLES IN THIS COUNTRY'S HOMICIDE PROBLEM.

THEY ARE RARELY USED.

THEY'RE NOT EVEN THE DOMINANT WEAPON IN MASS SHOOTINGS.

HANDGUNS ARE THE DOMINANT WEAPON.

MORE PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY HANDGUNS IN MASS SHOOTINGS THAN ARE KILLED BY ASSAULT RIFLES.

IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF HOW WE'RE WELL MEANING ATTEMPTS TO DEAL WITH THIS COUNTRY'S VIOLENCE PROBLEM MISSED THE MARK BECAUSE WE'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM.

WE'RE NOT LOOKING CLOSELY AT WHAT THESE BILLS SAY, AND ALSO, WE'RE NOT LOOKING CLOSELY AT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IN SOMETHING LIKE A MASS SHOOTING.

>> I WONDER HOW DOES RACE AND CLASS PLAY INTO ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT YOU FOUND?

SOME OF THE SHORTCUTS THAT WE'RE TAKING TO IMAGINE WHAT THE GUN PROBLEM IS AND WHAT THE SOLUTION SHOULD BE.

ARE WE MISSING SOMETHING?

SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT MORE?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WONDERED IS I FEEL LIKE MANY AMERICANS, MANY KIND OF MIDDLE CLASS PRIVILEGED AMERICANS HAVE DONE A VERY EFFECTIVE JOB AT INSULATING THEMSELVES FROM THE REALITY OF THE GUN VIOLENCE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO IF YOU TALK TO, YOU KNOW, A STANDARD MIDDLE CLASS FAMILY AND ASK THEM WHAT DO THEY FEAR, MANY OF THEM WILL SAY THAT THEY FEAR MASS SHOOTINGS IN SCHOOLS, RIGHT.

BECAUSE THEY READ ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME.

>> YEAH.

>> IN FACT, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED IN MASS SHOOTINGS IN AMERICAN SCHOOLS OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS IS, I MEAN, IT'S A LOT, BUT THAT IS DWARFED, DWARFED BY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED BECAUSE OF GUNS IN OTHER SETTINGS.

IT'S LESS THAN 1% OF THE PROBLEM.

THE IDEA THAT A PRINCIPLE FEAR OF A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS, PRIVILEGED AMERICANS ABOUT CRIME IS CENTERED ON A PROBLEM THAT IS LESS THAN 1% OF THE ISSUE, THAT'S --THAT'S A PROBLEM, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> YOU CAN'T -- YOU CAN'T --YOU CAN'T HAVE AN EFFECTIVE CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS WHEN PEOPLE ARE FOCUSING ON A COMPLETELY MARGINAL PART OF THE --OF THE PROBLEM THAT THE COUNTRY FACES.

YOU GOT TO ADDRESS THE REAL PROBLEM FIRST, RIGHT.

AND WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.

WE'RE GETTING DISTRACTED, UNDERSTANDABLY, BUT WE'RE FOCUSING ON THINGS THAT ARE NOT ESSENTIAL IN THE KIND OF BROADER CONTEXT.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE AMERICAN WAY OF KILLING. "

AUTHOR MALCOLM GLADWELL.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

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