(bright music) (bright music continues) - Welcome to a special episode of "InFocus."

2022 marks 25 years since US Senator Paul Simon founded the Simon Institute at SIU Carbondale.

One of the first people he talked to about the founding and what he wanted to do with it was Mike Lawrence who was his associate director to begin with.

Mike Lawrence joins us here on "InFocus."

Mike, thanks for taking the time.

- Glad to be here.

- I wonder if we could get started with, well, how it all began.

Can you tell us a little bit about the phone call from Senator Simon as he was beginning to start the process of the Simon Institute?

- Well, at the time I received the call, I was a press secretary and senior policy advisor for Governor Edgar.

And Paul confided in me that he was not going to run for reelection in 1996, and he was going to found a public policy institute at Southern Illinois University.

And he was calling me because he wanted Governor Edger to attend the announcement regarding the institute.

Now, Paul could have called the governor directly, but for some reason he typically would call me and I'd follow through with the governor on whatever Paul had on his mind.

Well, I asked him during that phone call a little bit about what he was trying to do with the institute.

I was considering, in fact, I'd made a decision to move on from the administration after serving with Governor Edgar for 10 years.

I never had a plan to be a lifer in government.

And after the call, I thought to myself, "You know, this could be something I'd be interested in if Paul were looking for a junior partner."

And so I got in touch with Gene Callahan, a mutual friend of Paul and mine.

I didn't want to put Paul in a position where he had to say, "You know, I'm really not interested in bringing you here."

So I used Gene as an intermediary.

Well, a couple days later, my phone rang.

There was this very familiar baritone voice on the other end saying, "When can you come?"

So Governor Edgar asked me to finish that legislative session with him, and I moved down to Carbondale right after Independence Day in July of 1997.

- I wonder when Senator Simon began the institute, he talked a lot about some of his big visions both on the global scale and on a statewide scale.

I know one of the initiatives that he really focused with you on was campaign finance reform.

I know there was a summit late in the 1990s that brought a lot of people from across the state to Carbondale to get them out of Springfield and out of those seats of power and really have some deep discussions.

What was that seminar and that workshop like for you?

- Well, actually, the real work was done through four legislators, two from the Senate, two from the House, two Democrats and two Republicans.

And we worked over a period of months to put together a package.

We started among the group with the least controversial of all the reformed proposals then moved to the more controversial.

We knew there would come a point where they were gonna agree to disagree on certain proposals.

Anyway, we developed a package, among other things, it prohibited, on the prospective phases, legislators from using campaign funds for things like putting in addition on their home, or buying a car.

And a less-held provision was one that required candidates for public office to file their campaign finance disclosure reports electronically.

That made a huge difference, because as a former investigative reporter, I remember having to fill out all sorts of paperwork and go through all sorts of paper to find out who is contributing to campaigns and how those campaigns were spending their money.

Well, this made it instantly available.

Well, one of the four I worked with was a state senator named Barack Obama.

And I had not met him before.

We worked together on that project.

He worked collegiality with the other legislators.

And after we got our package through the General Assembly, I said to Paul, "You know, I'm really impressed with Senator Obama, and I think if he runs statewide, he can win."

Now, I'd like to tell you, Jennifer, that I went on say, "And then he's gonna be president of the United States."

I was not that farsighted.

- Good to know.

Good to know.

I wonder, in your time, you succeeded Senator Simon when he retired and became director of the Institute.

What would you say were your highlights during your time there and what do you hope that the legacy is for your tenure as director of the institute?

- Well, each director is going to have his or her own agenda, but I would hope that every director would be true to Paul's vision.

And his vision was essentially that the institute be a do tank and not a think tank.

That it tackle major issues, a lot of which were not in the headlines, but were very important by bringing together people in the arena, elected officials, appointed officials, community leaders, religious leaders, and by bringing them together, come up with concrete recommendations.

And even beyond that, perhaps like we did on campaign finance reform, actually converting a lot of those proposals into law.

And I think that was an important part of what we did.

And I would hope it would be the legacy.

Because what we discovered, I think Paul probably knew that already, and so did I to a certain extent from our experience in the arena, was that if you brought people together, they might start out thinking, "There's nothing we can agree on.

We don't even like certain, you know, certain people on the other side."

But when they would sit down, they would discover there was common ground, and they would then build on that.

And I really think that's a big part of the legacy.

Paul, of course, his vision was very broad.

He wanted to make a difference in the region, in the state, in the nation, and in the world.

- Mike Lawrence was the director of the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute following its namesake, Senator Paul Simon.

Mike, thanks for your time.

- You're welcome.

- Continuing our conversation about the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute and its 25th anniversary with someone certainly very close to the beginnings and as it continues, Sheila Simon.

You are Senator Simon's daughter and you also know about the legacy and the life of the institute.

Thanks for joining us.

- Thanks for recognizing this important anniversary.

- 25 years is a big deal.

And so people probably wonder, as your dad was preparing to leave his life in the US Senate and in Washington, and saying, "I think I still have more work to do," how did that conversation go with the family about what he was going to do when he left Washington?

- Well, first, we knew that he did not slow down, so no one expected that from dad.

And there were universities all over the place that wanted him to come and teach, engage in policy work in one way or another.

And he was very interested in SIU, but he also talked with folks at the University of Chicago who planned out something that was well funded and would've been fabulous, I'm sure.

But dad really wanted to be here at home.

And I'm sure, partly the fact that we had one daughter here was part of the appeal.

But what he really loved about coming back to Carbondale and to SIU was the students here.

And he felt if he went to one of the other universities who was talking with him, he would be dealing with people who already had every advantage.

And here he was gonna be dealing with folks who were often the first member of their their family to go to college and who had never had an experience of getting engaged personally in the political process.

And that's what he wanted to promote, to get more voices into our democracy.

- Among the things that your dad started when he was building the Simon Institute was a connection in the Metro East, for example, with students there and bringing students from East St. Louis, not just to Carbondale, but taking them to Springfield.

How important was it for him to have people with different perspectives, not just culturally, but age wise and socioeconomic, how important was that diversity for him?

- That was super important.

It's something that we grew up with in our family so certainly no surprise to me that dad wanted to reach out and get other voices who aren't always heard in our government, to be actively engaged and not just supporting candidates and working on campaigns, but getting into the process, running for office, and feeling that this is the right spot for them.

That's the kind of stuff that really excited him to be able to get those voices that aren't always a part of it into the picture and help building a better government whether it's at the local level, the state level, or at the national level.

- Did he talk a lot about his legacy and what he hoped people would remember about him or what he hoped people would know about the institute?

Because he didn't name it the Simon Institute when he founded it here.

- So he actually, they wanted to name it the Simon Institute and he said no.

We found out when we were digging through the records after he passed away, they wanted to change it to the Paul Simon Institute.

Turns out they had actually officially named it, but he just wouldn't let them use that name, which I think is really sweet.

No, he didn't talk about his legacy.

He just liked to be involved in doing it.

And that's what he would often talk about with the Policy Institute, "I don't want it to be a think tank.

I want it to be a do tank," right?

He wanted to get people together and hear from those different voices that we were talking about, and come up with solutions to problems that are really sticky, that were made harder by partisan divides that now we look back and like, "Wow, that wasn't even really a partisan divide.

We've got more problems now."

But he really enjoyed being a part of that and getting other people to be a part of it too.

- I remember one of the issues that he was very direct and very focused on was water, and access to water, clean water all around the world.

How did that legacy impact, do you think, the young people that he worked with and do you think that that's something that continues today?

- It's so interesting 'cause I remember he was so engaged in the issue of water resources.

He would always say, "You know, we've fought wars over oil and in the future, we're gonna be fighting wars over water."

And as we deal with climate change, water becomes that much more important.

Too much of it, too little of it.

A long time ago, he used to just have such a hard time getting anyone to have that conversation with him and more and more people would say, "Oh, yeah.

I'm interested in water issues."

And he'd gravitate towards anyone who would say that and have a long conversation.

So yeah, I think he maybe cued up the issue for the rest of us to take and do some more with.

- With 25 years coming in right now, what do you think he would hope for the next 25, for the Simon Institute, for Southern Illinois?

You can choose.

- Yeah, I think he'd be totally impressed by some of the things that John Shaw is up to.

Dad, who never even used an electric typewriter, right, he was a manual typewriter guy, to see that during the pandemic, John fired up a whole system of roping in people from all over the world and all of us in Southern Illinois could have access to them, he'd be thrilled by that.

He'd be thrilled by how that inspires people.

I just remember the conversation that John had with now Secretary Pete Buttigieg, and to see, oh, yeah, this is a guy, he's a Midwestern guy, and look what he is up to now.

We can do this.

Dad would be thrilled by that, even though I'm sure he'd be totally befuddled by the technology.

(laughs) - You have your own connections through Illinois politics and federal politics as well.

Do you think that the Simon Institute is living up to what people know about your dad and about the Simon name?

- I think so.

I think Dad really wanted to encourage people to get engaged, people from all over the university, not just the political science majors and the journalists, right, and they do a great job, but they're gonna be engaged.

He would've been impressed by David Yepsen reaching out to the hard science majors and getting them engaged.

He would've loved how Mike Lawrence put an emphasis on getting more African American students engaged in the political process.

Yeah, I think, who can predict the direction something is gonna go, but I think you'd be 100% thrilled with what's going on now.

- Sheila Simon is the daughter of the late US Senator Paul Simon and the founder of the Simon Institute at Southern Illinois University Carbondale.

She is a professor in the SIU School of Law.

Sheila, thanks for your time.

- Thank you, Jennifer.

- And we'll be back with another expert on the Simon Institute in just a minute.

We continue our conversation on the legacy and looking ahead to the future of the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute at SIU Carbondale with executive director John Shaw.

John, thanks for coming in.

- Jen, great to see you again.

- We've heard a lot about Senator Simon about how the institute began.

Can you tell us a little bit about your own inspiration of Senator Simon and where you hope to take the institute?

- Well, let me start with the first, I was a reporter in Washington for many years and Senator Simon was the Illinois senator, and I remember the first time, I just approached him and introduced myself.

I grew up in Peoria, I mentioned that, went to college at Knox College and just talked a little bit about Illinois.

And when I would pass him in the hall periodically, we would make some kind of, you know, passing references to Illinois and all.

So the thing that I remember about him, I guess are two things.

One, just, maybe it's a cliche but just the decency by which he comported himself.

I mean, he was one of these people that would treat the Senate majority leader the same way as a Senate elevator operator.

And you don't see that a lot in Washington or Springfield or Carbondale or just life in general.

But this just this basic decency and kindness and respect that he really, you know, displayed to everyone.

And also kind of, I mean, he was definitely a liberal, but was not kind of a prisoner to partisan labels.

I mean, he would sort of move outside the box.

And one of the issues that I covered him on was he was a supporter of a balanced budget constitutional amendment, which was anathema to most Democrats.

But Senator Simon believed that the country's fiscal house had to be put in order, thought this was maybe the best way that it could happen.

He didn't love the notion of a constitutional amendment for fiscal policy, but he thought it was what was needed.

And I remember going to press conferences in which he was with Orrin Hatch, the conservative Republican from Utah.

And it was an odd pairing, this very, very conservative Republican from Utah and this liberal Democrat from Illinois.

And reporters would press Senator Simon pretty hard on the balance budget amendment.

He was always polite, always courtly, held his ground.

There were some games playing on this amendment but that was not where Senator Simon was.

He had a real conviction.

He didn't play games, and he pushed it hard, and it was defeated.

He accepted the defeat with graciousness and moved on to other issues.

- As he brought that kind of leadership back to Carbondale and developed the institute and got things going, I don't know how much you followed as he left Washington but now that you are here, what types of things did he get started that you're hoping to build on and even grow?

- Well, the one thing about Senator Simon is he had interests in a lot of areas.

I mean, when he started the institute, I mean, it's initial brief was to focus on public policy and the international, national, state, regional local realms.

So he had very wide interests, and I guess I've inherited those, although my own particular stance has been to try to tighten our agenda some because we have a small staff and just I guess I don't have the bandwidth of Senator Simon.

I mean, I need to focus on two or three programs and really make them run well.

We have a heavy focus on Illinois.

This was where he created the institute.

We have a program that you participated in very graciously this fall called a Renewing Illinois Summit, which brings together students from across the state.

I think that's really positive.

We have a series called "Illinois Authors" in which we talk to Illinois authors to get their perspectives on Illinois.

We have a virtual series called "Meet the Mayor" in which we talk with Illinois mayors.

So we have a strong Illinois component.

I'm very interested in the the notion of statesmanship.

You and I have talked about that quite a bit.

I think that's really critical to Senator Simon's view of governance, and policy, and politics.

So we have a number of initiatives on that.

So, I mean, I've inherited the broad array of interest that the center had.

I've tightened our agenda a bit.

But still, you know, the one thing that strikes me is when you talk to people about Paul Simon and the institute he left behind, I mean, he was the gold standard for decency in Illinois politics.

And people from all political persuasions have good things to say about him and respect his approach to public service.

And I might just tell you one of my favorite stories about Senator Simon.

He had received a very harsh letter from a constituent on an issue, I think it was guns.

And the constituent wrote a very sharp, angry letter.

And the senator's response was classic.

He said, "You know, on the issue of guns, you believe this," and he laid out the person's position.

And he said, "You know and my position, as you described was this," and he briefly described that.

And then he ended it by saying, "So if you don't agree with me on this issue maybe you should vote for someone else."

And when I tell that story of students, I say, think about what he said.

He didn't challenge their patriotism, or their intelligence, or their decency, nor did he say, "We're almost there.

We're not that far apart."

He just said, "This is an issue that we just may disagree.

And if so, you know, let's agree to disagree and move forward.

You, as a voter, make your choices.

Me, as a public official, make my decisions on voting."

And I tell my students, I mean, wouldn't you rather have a career on that basis than serving decades with, you know, twisting and turning in the wind and just trying to survive?

So I think to me, one of the most enduring aspects of Senator Simon's legacy, it was just as approach to public service and government.

It was just really honorable, and decent, and civil.

And that's something that we could all learn from now I think.

- In full disclosure, I was a student of Senator Simon when he was here at Southern Illinois University and he loved telling stories like those, and talked about the way forward for democracy or the way forward for the union.

I wonder, as you work with students now, there's a legacy there in his service to the young people and the future, he said, of this university and of this nation.

What kind of hopes do you have for the students that are a part of the Simon Internship program, or some of the other programs that the institute provides in terms of what they'll take into the world?

- Yeah, I mean, first of all, we wanna give them experience in how government works.

And, you know, these internships in Springfield are invaluable for that.

I started my career as an intern many years ago and it just kind of launched my career.

So that's really, really key.

And I think also just more broadly just kind of the ethos of Senator Simon.

And, you know, one of our challenges, frankly, is to reintroduce Senator Simon to a new generation because, you know, he passed away nearly 20 years ago.

You know, he left politics, you know, years before that.

And people, particularly young students, may have heard of him a bit, but don't really know very much about him.

So that's one of the things we're trying to do is constantly find new ways of making his life and legacy more understandable to students.

And that's a continuing challenge to be frank.

- A lot of people see lawmakers, like a US Senator or like a congressman, even state lawmakers, as unreachable.

Someone that they can't reach out and talk to or bring their issues to.

Just a minute or so that we have remaining.

How can people get involved with the Simon Institute so that their voices might be heard?

- Well, I guess a number of ways.

One, just follow our events.

We're gonna have more in-person events now that COVID seems to have mercifully passed from the scene.

We have lots of virtual conversations with people from really around the world.

Just recently, we had a wonderful conversation with "The New York Times" Chief European correspondent in Paris.

You know, we've had the former president of Ireland, Leon Panetta, et cetera, et cetera.

So watch our virtual events, come to our in-person events, go to our website and see some of the programs that we're working on, and we encourage students to come on down.

We'd love to see them at the institute as much as possible.

- John Shaw is the executive director of the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute at Southern Illinois University Carbondale.

John, thanks for taking the time.

- Thank you so much.

- And thank you for joining us on this special edition of "InFocus."

We hope that you'll join us again.

You can find all of our videos online at wsiu.org and at our YouTube channel where you can click that subscribe button.

For all of us here at WSIU, I'm Jennifer Fuller.

Thanks for joining us.

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