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Well thank you very much for joining us.

Tonight is a very special Donnybrook.

You may have heard the news in St.

Louis Magazine and beyond that Nine PBS is renovating our building and our studios on Olive Street.

So along with our set the staff is moving out for about a year while this building that we're in right now is transformed into a place that will better serve our St.

Louis community.

And so to celebrate this milestone and the last Donnybrook in this studio, for the time being anyway, we have a rare live studio audience with us tonight.

Thank you.

But don't worry Donnybrook and Nine PBS aren't going anywhere.

We'll be back next Thursday from our temporary studio.

And now let's meet the panelists.

Starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Weise.

Mr.

Bill McClellan, one of our founders from the Post-Dispatch.

From St.

Louis Magazine, her podcast, the 314 podcast and the daily newsletter, Sarah Fenske.

And from the St.

Louis American, Alvin Reid.

Hey Alvin, we're gonna start with you and by the way thank you for your sartorial splendor.

As always.

It's a special show.

Had to do a little something special.

It is.

I gotta ask you about what's going on in St.

Charles.

It was announced, I think just today or so, that their flock camera program is being suspended after one employee abused it.

Flock cameras are surveillance cameras around the community that look for stolen cars, cars that have been used in the commission of a crime, etc, etc.

But apparently one employee in the St.

Charles Police Department abused it.

So they're dropping it and they're keeping something called Gene Tech.

It's another surveillance company that apparently has better safeguards.

What do you think?

I think that's terrible.

I mean you have one bad actor so you get rid of what has proven to be a successful program.

Probably not only in St.

Charles but all around the country.

Now I understand that the person involved might, you know, be an embarrassment to St.

Charles.

But why get rid of the entire program?

I really like the license plate readers.

I don't think people's privacy is being invaded.

I just, you know, I really don't get this one at all.

Well I thought it was great that they wouldn't identify the employee except to say that he's got 40 years of law enforcement experience and he's been there five years.

I mean so everybody in the St.

Charles government knows exactly who this is.

But they're going to act like it's a secret to the rest of us.

And he's a vegetarian Sagittarius.

So I think that really narrows it down.

In a way you almost have to be proud of some guy who's that old enough to have, you know, 40 years of law enforcement.

Still hunting around, you know, chasing somebody with his... Yeah I think it depends on who he's chasing and why maybe.

That might be the problem.

But I'm with you Alvin.

I think that, first of all, I think for them to say that that privacy is an issue, anybody who has a phone, as I've said a million times, the privacy is gone.

It's not just, we don't have to worry about flat cameras.

Our privacy is gone.

So go ahead.

I think we do have to worry about flat cameras.

I think there have been concerns all around the country about these because they don't have the safeguards that some of these other license plate readers have.

And I know you guys are always telling me, well if you're not a criminal you have nothing to fear.

You know there's this famous civil rights attorney who wrote a book saying the average American commits three felonies a day.

Oh come on.

It's a fact.

Oh come on.

There's so many different ways that you can accidentally violate the law.

And so the idea of giving law enforcement these kind of tools where they can indiscriminately catch people up in it, if they want to come after somebody, it should make every libertarian's heart feel a little nervous.

Did you say a defense attorney?

Well that's who knows the law better than anyone.

Well aren't they just rolling for clients?

I mean, right?

Well they should, they should probably hope that there would be more clients.

He's trying to say, hey let's be careful with the surveillance.

More than that, this shows, you know, they put these safeguards in just a couple days ago because advocates in that community kept saying like, hey we need more safeguards.

Within like two days of putting them in place, they catch this guy with 40 years experience.

That I think kind of proves the point.

I just think that what the fear is, people are out there creeping around and don't want to get busted someplace they aren't supposed to be.

And to me that's like, look, I understand people have private lives, but I honestly don't think you get rid of this entire program because somebody's fearful that their license plate might get scanned on the wrong side of town at a time they weren't supposed to be there.

Well you know, and they are all over the United States now Sarah, and crime around the country is dropping and people are scratching their heads.

They don't know exactly why.

I mean, in all the big cities crime is down, including St.

Louis, it could be the preponderance of cameras are thwarting criminal activity.

And I think it's important that if we put those cameras in place, that we have safeguards so that senior law enforcement members aren't stalking their ex-wives.

And so that they're not, say, coming after journalists or coming after critics of City Hall.

Well, worse than that, I am very concerned.

I don't want ICE to be getting the information on flock cameras and I've been told by certain police chiefs in St.

Louis County that that's not going to happen, at least in their departments.

But if it is shared, that would concern me because I feel that ICE has been abusing its powers in recent years.

Yeah, I think we all have to be careful what happens if there's like a federal subpoena for this data.

It could fall into all sorts of wrong hands, like not just the lascivious senior police officer, but literally our federal government is potentially a problem.

Well, speaking of civil liberties and the like, Bill McClellan, I want to ask you about action taken by the St.

Louis County Council to try and restrict panhandling throughout St.

Louis County.

It's going to cut back on aggressive panhandling.

That means you might touch somebody, or you might not stop asking for money, or you might ask for money in a very aggressive, abusive manner.

And this will apply at places like bus stops, near ATMs, and in roadways.

And I think that's what most people are concerned about.

When they're driving a car and someone approaches the window, they're kind of scared.

What do you think about this?

Well, I am in favor of limiting panhandling.

And I think that the big concern that the County Council has, as Lisa Clancy says, is that this is going to cost us a lot of money in a lawsuit.

So I think that the County Council should go to Beavis Schock, who's the attorney who makes these kind of lawsuits, and say, Beavis, we want to hire you two hours of your time, and read this statute, and tell us if it works.

And, you know, and if Beavis will do that, that will, you know, save the county thousands of dollars.

And if Beavis won't, they should just publicize it.

Because, you know, Beavis, I think, is one of the guys in the Holy Joe Society that does wonderful things, but they're always talking about saving the public money.

And I think that we should say, you know, Beavis, here's $500.

I don't know what he charges.

He's a great lawyer.

But a couple hours and tell us this is okay.

Because we don't want you to turn around and sue us tomorrow.

The biggest problem I got is the people that give you a Tootsie Roll when it's 110 degrees outside.

You know, that doesn't work.

I don't think you can tell people that, you know, you can't be, you know, it's okay for you to be out here in the middle of the road, but it's not okay for you to be out here in the middle of the road.

This is going to lead to litigation.

I just think you just have to police it, no pun intended, in a way that if somebody is acting out of line, then you take care of it on an individual basis.

So either no one could be out there, or everybody.

At least what I have seen near our home out in Chesterfield, they move around, like they move from location to location.

And so I think that it is, it's kind of difficult to make sure that you're going, you know, you're going to call the police and they might not be there when you when you get there.

The other thing that I thought was kind of interesting was Larry Rice after he testified about the is it unhoused or is it homeless now?

Oh, I think I think it's okay.

When he was testifying about the homeless and how we're criminalizing and make it more making it more difficult to be homeless.

The county voted against him six to one.

I thought that I mean, because once upon a time, I think he had a little bit more cachet than that.

Yeah, I think that cachet is gone.

And it's so hard to find somebody to stick up for panhandlers.

God bless be the shock, you know, whether or not he's just doing it to get the attorney's fees, or this is sort of, you know, he said, No, I'm not suggesting.

I'm not suggesting that.

But you know, I think it is a motivation in addition to how he might feel about the First Amendment.

I think some of these prior challenges, people were saying, Well, if the firefighters are out there with their boots, you know, why can't I agree?

I agree.

And old news boys day, it's all got to go.

I disagree with Mr.

Shock and others who say that this panhandling is speech.

I think it's commercial speech, especially if you're at an ATM.

And all of a sudden, you're approached by somebody who's asking for money.

I think I don't use ATMs, but I think that would be intimidating.

Well, that they're asking for trouble there, because anything can have you walk up on somebody taking money out of the ATM in this day and age.

Exactly.

And I'm still trying to figure out where these homeless people are in Chesterfield.

One day I want to ask you, Walmart is already delivering goods five pounds or less within six miles in places like Atlanta and Dallas, right?

But this year, they want to expand that to another 150 cities, including ST Charles and Maplewood.

And so they've approached town mothers and fathers in both communities saying, Hey, this is what we want to do.

We want to deliver packages via drone, and they're gonna drop it in someone's backyard or on the driveway or wherever they can.

Are you for it or against it?

I think it's coming, whether we want it or not.

I think that, you know, we saw the power of Walmart back in the early eighties when they were putting mom and dad, you know, mom and pop shops out of business.

And when they were kind of upending Main Street, if Walmart wants this to happen, it's going to happen.

What stunned me, though, was the number of people saying, You know, there's too many delivery trucks in our neighborhood.

I mean, we see the Amazon guy more than we see family members.

And I mean, we're probably truly we're probably gonna invite him to Thanksgiving dinner with us.

But you know, it's too many delivery drivers, too many drones.

I think we're just a nation full of spoiled, whiny babies.

I don't know.

I mean, five pounds.

Okay, now, five pounds from 100 feet falling on somebody's head.

This doesn't make sense.

And the thing is, is that this will happen.

It'll fall on somebody, and it'll be like, Oh, that's terrible.

It's gonna fall on somebody's dog or cat, and the world's gonna come to an end.

Right?

So I mean, this is a bad idea.

This is Look, it's not that rush of a situation where it has to be brought to your house by a drone.

And Alvin, you're worried about it falling on people says, I don't know if I'm like, just been living in ST Louis too long.

I'm worried about people shooting these things down.

Like, maybe this is not gonna happen in Chesterfield, but like, I don't know.

I know Maplewood.

I but I don't like the idea of things winging through the skies.

Like, I think part of what's bad for me is there's so few decent jobs left.

And so now we're gonna take away like you can't even be an Amazon driver.

You have to have a controller.

Someone's gonna have to operate.

They'll be operating like 45 at one.

But what about the environment?

Won't these drones use less fuel, carbon, carbon?

No, that's what I'm thinking.

And I think Wendy's right.

It's gonna happen.

It just has to be regulated.

Hey, it's not like the Amazon driver can't get in a car accident or run over somebody's cat.

Okay, so technically the drone has to know where it's going, right?

So thus it has, you know, it's flying along and it sees or whatever.

Now, isn't that an invasion of privacy too?

I think, you know, like, hey, there's a drone next door.

You know, well, you know, it absolutely amazes me.

We had all of these heated privacy conversations until 9 11.

And now there are cameras everywhere, not just in the I get it.

I'm just I was just kind of throwing the privacy thing back in you all.

But this is a bad idea.

This is I don't think it's already happening in Texas.

I don't care.

You want to be left behind?

It was interesting that the people in Maplewood kind of stood up and said, This is a bad idea.

And the people in ST Charles said, This seems like a nice idea.

I mean, you know, I'm against it.

I don't like Walmart.

I don't like drones.

I don't like any new thing.

Except other dinosaurs, right?

You like other by the way, I saw your friend Bill Locker the other day.

Good guy.

Yes, yes, yes.

I want to ask you, Sarah, about the story that you broke.

And that is that the ST Louis club, which has been around forever.

It's a venerable ST Louis tradition.

Exquisite dining by French chefs, generally power lunches.

But it's facing all sorts of financial problems, you report, and it might go the way of the Noonday Club, University Club, Junior League Media Club.

What do you think?

Well, I think on some level, as you say, this is a sign of the times.

These sort of expensive private clubs are going under in cities around the country right now because, frankly, restaurants have gotten a lot better in a place like ST Louis.

You now have a lot of different choices where you could have your lunch.

And so it's like, do I want to pay?

It turns out they're currently paying $800 a month just for the privilege to dine there.

Anything you order is on top of that.

I guess I'm poor because I found that shocking.

But I don't I think that the other thing that happened here, they made a really bad decision.

And the decision they made was to leave their longtime home, which was in this building that had just a terrific view.

You know, looking over Forest Park, you could see all the way to downtown ST Louis.

This was a huge part of the appeal.

They vacated that building.

They moved across the street to the fifth floor of this shiny new Centine building, where suddenly they have a view of, oh, their old building, which isn't that great from the outside.

And again, it's the fifth floor.

You're like, you're not gonna pay for this view.

So that led to a catastrophic falling off in the membership.

You can look at it in their tax returns.

It's like their revenues just plunged at the point when they made that move.

And according to your article, it's not just the view.

It's the parking.

So that seems to be the recipe for success.

You know, the one thing you learn in ST Louis is people only like things that have really convenient parking.

Yeah.

And they eliminated that for this garage that apparently people hate to navigate.

Why did they do this?

Why did they make that move?

Well, there's a lot of conversations about this.

You know, I think Centine, I think the late Michael Nydorf, who was who was just beloved, you know, he had an executive who was on this board.

One of his top guys was on the board of this club.

I think he himself was a member.

I think he maybe made a pitch that they listened to.

And I think he probably did it with good intentions.

He was proud of his big new building.

I think also the old building, the Pierre Laclede building at one point had asbestos issues.

And also, one person who worked at Dowd Bennett told me, you know, you could get stuck in the elevator and they didn't even care.

You'd be in there for like an hour or so.

But interestingly enough, the Pierre Laclede building is now owned by David Hoffman, your boss.

It's a great building.

He's done so much for it.

Well, maybe he has because he's putting all that beautiful statues outside.

Maybe he's fixed the place up.

One of the great ironies that the space that the ST Louis club had did need some work.

Well, the M. A. C. Saw opportunity.

This rival club, they came in, did the work, which was a lot less expensive than moving across the street.

And they are apparently doing gangbusters.

Don't Don't you think it's a sign of ST Louis going down in stature?

I don't.

And I knew you were gonna try to make this argument.

Well, let me you people like to say this whenever something closes.

Sometimes it is just an overall cultural shift.

It's not a ST Louis.

Well, let me say this.

In the early 19 nineties, Pierre Chambran, who had been the chef at the White House for the first Bush presidency and the Clintons, left that job and he went straight to the ST Louis club.

Is there some institution in ST Louis now that would attract the White House chef?

I believe so.

Which one would that be?

Well, off the top of my head, I don't think about it.

Um, maybe PJs and Kirkwood.

Maybe with this presidency, he would take that job.

But I just think this ST Louis club, it's like, listen, even if I had more money than I knew what to do with and I could afford all of these dues and pay for lunch, I would be more upset about the little things like that than I would the bill itself.

So this is not a indication of what's going on in ST Louis.

This is just like, God, it's ugly and I have no place to park and I'm with those people.

I mean, yeah, but it's a change.

It's a change in the culture.

I mean, there are, there are there.

It's somebody else's world today.

We're just sort of living in it.

Well, we are no longer the Democrat bogey club in the long camp.

And those are still, I think they're still around.

They're still very popular, but this is essentially like a luncheon club and a wedding club and you're paying $800 dues.

If Sarah said, just for the privilege of buying, I will say one other thing, you know, that both centine towers have cafeterias that are really extraordinary.

And I think they're, to some extent, they're subsidized by the tenants in there so that you can get really great food.

Remember, we used to go to Fandos cafeteria.

Yes, absolutely.

They've got great cafeterias like that in both the towers.

So if you're an Armstrong Teasdale or you're at Doud Bennett or contemporary productions, guess what?

You don't have to leave your building and you can get a great meal at a cheap price.

Well, and here's the other thing is so many people now don't even take a lunch break.

I hear y'all stories about how you could have drinks at lunch.

I can't remember the last time I had a lunch where I wasn't huddled over my desk, editing six things at once.

Like, America has changed.

Not any, but not any of us.

Well, we're just talking about, you make it sound like that's all we did.

Yeah, God, we actually did put papers out right every day.

As a matter of fact, by the way, until I was in college, I thought if you joined the country club, everything was free.

I was college age and somebody explained to me.

No, it doesn't work that way.

Hey, Alvin, are you going to, by the way, get to Belle Reve this week?

I've actually been out there and trust me, the good people of Belle Reve, if if they went to lunch one time and it was just Big Macs and White Castle, they'd raise their hand and say, like, something's wrong.

I'm going to change my membership now.

Beautiful.

And I'm privileged to be credentialed for the golf tournament this week.

U. S. News and World Report.

Alvin reports this week.

The top four schools in the state are from our region.

The first one, I believe, is Metro, the Magnet School High School in the city of ST Louis.

Number two is Collegiate, another Magnet High School in the city of ST Louis, followed by Clayton and Parkway West.

A couple of things.

Do we really trust U. S. News as an arbiter of excellence when it comes to high schools?

Okay.

The other is, do you think that these are the best schools?

Well, I think your top two and I'm like I said, I'm not hating on them, but they they can pick who attends their schools.

So they're not the traditional public school where you take, you know, all takers, you know, we got to take you off.

All right.

But more power to them.

They do very well and they're very diverse.

Both schools are.

So I applaud them.

Also Parkway West while rival of Kirkwood.

But you know, I think it's indicative of the fact that we do a good job in education in the ST Louis area.

Not every district, obviously, but I think we kick teachers, we kick principals, we kick school so much.

How about we applaud some of us that are doing pretty good and the new superintendent?

Oh, well, that's quite possible.

The new superintendent had a role.

But I think when you take a look at these magnet schools that do very well in U. S. News and I don't even know if U. S. News exists as a new source anymore.

But, um, you know, both collegiate and Metro are very selective.

Like, for example, a collegiate, you have to get all B's and A's in your 7th and 8th grade to be considered as an applicant.

Now, if all high schools could do that, that's well, of course, they're, they're telling you would go up.

Okay, look, I am not gonna argue about the credibility of U. S. News and World Report because I think it's just like one guy in a basement who's trying to cash in from these.

I agree.

I disagree.

They've been doing it for decades.

I mean, they know, but that doesn't that doesn't mean it's like what the R. F. T. Is now a site for.

Oh, no, it is.

No, I don't take it personal.

But you would agree things have changed in this digital world.

Yeah, but my the bigger point that you're making about should these magnet schools that are part of the ST Louis public schools count?

Guess what?

They are choosing the kids who get to go to school there in some ways.

Places like Chesterfields and places like Clayton are also choosing who gets to go to school there by having the property values are what they are.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I'm sorry.

Clayton schools number three on the list.

There are not people coming into Clayton schools who are dealing with the level of poverty that are happening in, say, the city of ST Louis and some of these other districts around town, and that is its own self selecting group in the same way that a magnet high school in the city is.

And if we're not being honest about that, I don't think we're talking about you talk about Clayton and the demand area where I live.

That's mostly apartments there and very expensive apartments.

Bill, your neighborhood is very it is, and it's a great neighborhood.

But I mean, it isn't all extremely wealthy people.

Neither is Chester.

I would say Kirkwood, maybe the exception because there are a lot of kids to go to Kirkwood that are on free and reduced lunch and and does just as well as some of these other schools.

I don't think you can hold it against the community that is affluent that they have very good schools because they have made the decision.

But they made the decision.

Magnet schools in the city of ST Louis.

But these other schools, while like I said, they do have to take every student.

And if every student is not necessarily a great student, and I think if the choice is made by the school board and the and the parents and the citizens of that municipality, we want our schools to flourish and do well.

That should not be held against them.

I do not hold it against them.

I am so grateful that we have these great school districts.

I think it's amazing.

Everyone I know who's going to Clayton Kirkwood.

They've had a wonderful education.

I want there to be more of that.

But I feel like there are barriers to getting into those high schools.

Those barriers just have to do more with like what rent can your parents pay?

What kind of house can your parents afford to buy?

Oh, I think that's absolutely correct.

Even if you do cite that demand may not be town and country, it's still way above North.

Of course.

And there's nobody living in abject poverty there.

I'm not arguing that.

No.

So I think Sarah's point is good and it would be nice.

I know people will probably walk out of the room now, but I think that these communities should have a requirement like the communities in Greater Boston that a certain percentage of the homes should be section or low income.

Uh, and I know that wouldn't fly in our area, but it would at least provide a more educational opportunities for people who don't have means.

It has been the case before.

It wouldn't.

I think like Meacham Park is a great example.

There are some pockets in some of these communities where people can afford to get in there and their kids are really benefiting from that.

And if we could create more pockets like that, I think the whole region would be uplifted.

Thank you, Sarah.

All right.

That's all we have for this program.

Why don't we find out what people had to say?

We'll go to the old mailbag, including this first letter from Mike Yavorsky of Florissant, who wrote is having the new seven digit license plate sent via the U. S. Postal Service.

Ah, good idea.

Given their track record.

Thank you, Mike.

We also heard from Dolores Smith of University City, who wrote Missouri criminalizes an attempt to commit an offense.

It struck me how unthinkable so many of you seem to find the idea of prosecuting an upper class white golfer for attempting to obtain $6000 through fraud.

Thank you, Miss Smith.

Does truth in advertising apply to commercial advertising but not for politicians?

How about one law where you can't lie or mislead in any advertising that from Mario Vitale of ST john and we heard from Don Guild of ST Charles, who wrote every other state I've lived in Texas, Colorado, Tennessee, etcetera, has allowed sales taxes to be paid at the upon buying a new vehicle.

Why is this so hard for the state of Missouri?

You can write us care of nine PBS 63108.

That address is still a good one for your mail.

And you can also email email us Donnybrook at nine pbs dot org on social media.

Use hashtag Donnybrook STL.

Listen to us on your favorite podcast source wherever you are this summer.

And don't forget to listen or tune into last call.

It's our program on the Donnybrook YouTube channel.

This week we'll talk about a kerfuffle between the mayor and the police in the city of ST Louis that took place apparently at a funeral that and more.

So thank you so much for joining us on this somewhat historic program as we broadcast for the last time for a year or so from the plush but not overly ostentatious studio and see you next week at this time.

Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.