>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> OUR COUNTRY HAS TO SURVIVE, AND WE COUNT ON OUR REAL PARTNERS, STRATEGIC PARTNERS --UNITED STATES.

>> VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY SAYS HE FEELS BETRAYED BY THE UNITED STATES AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP STRIKES A DEAL WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN, EVEN AS RUSSIA KEEPS HITTING UKRAINIAN CITIZENS EVER HARDER.

WE'LL DISCUSS WHY THIS IS HAPPENING AND WHERE IT MIGHT BE HEADED.

> >> THEN -- >> THIS BECAME A PLACE WHERE THE IMPOSSIBLE SUDDENLY BECAME POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF -- >> 40 YEARS AGO THE TWO MOST POWERFUL LEADERS IN THE WORLD MET IN RECVIC ICELAND TO HASH OUT SOLUTIONS TO THE WORLD'S GREATEST PROBLEMS.

COULD THEIR VISION SURVIVE TODAY?

I SPEAK WITH CURRENT AND FORMER WORLD LEADERS IN REYKJAVIK ABOUT THE POWER OF FACE- TO- FACE DIALOGUE.

> >> AND -- >> UNTIL PEOPLE START THINKING ABOUT PREVENTION, THIS IS GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING.

>> WITH THE CORNELL CASE PUTTING CAMPUS SEXUAL VIOLENCE BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKERS WITH AUTHORS JENNIFER HIRSCH AND SHAMUS KHAN ABOUT WHY ASSAULT HAPPENS AND HOW IT MUST BE PREVENTED.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WE'RE DONE, THAT'S WHAT UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY TOLD THE FINANCIAL TIMES, EXPRESSING HIS FRUSTRATION WITH THE UNITED STATES AFTER A STRING OF WHITE HOUSE ACTIONS ENDANGERED EVEN MORE UKRAINIAN LIVES.

ON WEDNESDAY KYIV SAID THE STAR LINK SATELLITE SERVICE HAD RESTRICTED INTERNET ACCESS, DISRUPTING BOTH OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE OPERATIONS.

EARLIER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAD WARNED THAT THE U. S. COULD SUSPEND INTELLIGENCE SHARING IF UKRAINE DOES NOT HALT STRIKES ON RUSSIAN ENERGY FACILITIES.

THIS ALL FOLLOWS NEWS OF A WHITE HOUSE DEAL TO BUY RUSSIAN DIESEL.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SPOKE ABOUT ALL OF THIS WITH BRITISH INTERVIEWER PIERCE MORGAN.

>> DO YOU FEEL BETRAYED BY WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING?

>> REALLY, YES.

REALLY BETWEEN US, BUT IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST MY EMOTIONS OR MY FEELINGS.

YES, IT DEPENDS NOT ON ME.

I MEAN OUR COUNTRY HAS TO SURVIVE, AND WE COUNT ON OUR REAL PARTNERS, STRATEGIC PARTNERS, UNITED STATES.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP THEY WANTED US NOT TO ATTACK.

THIS -- MY OPINION WAS IT'S NOT FAIR.

>> AND NOW ZELENSKYY SAYS KYIV WILL RESUME STRIKES ON RUSSIA'S OIL AND ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

HE'S TRAVELED TO THE U. K. AND TO BRUSSELS, AND HE'S HOPING TO RALLY EUROPEAN AND NATO LEADERS TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON RUSSIA AND TO PROVIDE MORE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

AS CNN REPORTS THAT KYIV HAS NOW RUN OUT OF MISSILES FOR THE U. S.

-MADE PATRIOT AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM, LEAVING IT MUCH MORE VULNERABLE TO ATTACKS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER U. S. DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

AND SHE IS JOINING ME FROM GERMANY.

AND I WANT TO GET HER VIEW ON WHERE THIS OMINOUS STATE OF AFFAIRS IS HEADED.

EVELYN FARKAS, WELCOME.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LONG TIME AND OVER MANY, MANY YEARS OF THIS WAR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS ACTUALLY THE U. S. PLAN, FIRST AND FOREMOST?

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING COMING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I THINK IT'S HEAD SCRATCHING, FRANKLY, AND DISCONCERTING TO SAY THE LEAST FOR ALL OF US WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT ARTICULATED VERY CLEARLY HOW THIS DIESEL FUEL IS GOING TO CHANGE --THIS NEW RUSSIAN DIESEL FUEL DEAL WILL CHANGE THE PRICE FOR AMERICANS AT THE DIESEL PUMPS BECAUSE MOST EXPERTS ARE SAYING IT'S GOING TO HAVE LITTLE TO NO IMPACT AT ALL.

SO WHAT IS THE STRATEGY HERE THEN VISA VI RUSSIA?

YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY GIVING PUTIN A GIFT - -ALL THE MONEY, ALL THE REVENUE THAT HE WILL GAIN FROM THIS.

AND THAT IS COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED TO TRYING TO GET A PEACE DEAL BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, THE WAY TO GET A DEAL FROM SOMEONE LIKE PUTIN IS TO PUT PRESSURE ON HIM, AS YOU MENTIONED EARLIER.

>> AND YOU'RE RIGHT.

THAT SEEMS TO BE LIFTED.

THE PRESSURE SEEMS TO BE LIFTING ON PUTIN CERTAINLY FOR HIS WAR CHEST, CERTAINLY FOR THE MOMENT.

NOW, YOU HEARD WHAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID.

HE'S SAID IT TO ALLIES.

HE'S SAID IT IN INTERVIEWS, THAT HE FEELS BETRADED.

HE FEELS, AS YOU SAID, THAT IT'S A GIFT TO PUTIN.

HE ALSO SAID, AND THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT THIS IN KYIV, THAT THEY HAVE HAD THEIR ACCESS TO THE STAR LINK STAR SHIELD VERSION OF THAT, THE MILITARY VERSION OF THAT, SLOWED OR CUT OFF WITHOUT ANY PRIOR WARNING.

HOW DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENS?

MUSK, WHO OWNS STAR LINK, HAS SAID IT'S NOT UP TO HIM.

ALL HIS MILITARY HARDWARE IS SOLD TO THE PENTAGON, AND, YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT ALSO HAS THE FINAL SAY OVER IT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON THERE?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, SINCE THE PENTAGON IS PAYING THE BILLS, AS MUSK POINTED OUT, AND AS WE KNOW BECAUSE THIS HAS COME UP IN THE PAST IN THE MEDIA, THE REALITY IS I GUESS THE PENTAGON CAN TELL THE COMPANY HOW THEY WANT THE STAR LINK SYSTEM USED.

SO IT SOUNDS LIKE, YOU KNOW, IF WE BELIEVE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, AND WE HAVE NO REASON NOT TO BELIEVE HIM.

PLUS, WE SEE SOME REAL CONSEQUENCES.

SIX PEOPLE DIE.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A FAILURE TO INTERCEPT.

THAT WAS MORE ACTUALLY PROBABLY THE INTELLIGENCE SHARING PIECE OF THIS, WHICH WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT YET.

BUT THEN, OF COURSE, THE REALITY IS THERE WERE --THERE WERE BLACKOUTS.

THERE WERE THINGS THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN PREVENTED.

AND CERTAINLY ON THE BATTLEFIELD THE FIGHTERS HAVE SAID THAT THERE WAS A SLOWING OF THEIR DRONES, OF THEIR COUNTER -- THEIR DEFENSIVE SYSTEMS.

SO, YOU KNOW, OUR UNDERSTANDING IS THAT PROBABLY THIS WAS ORDERED BY THE PENTAGON.

NOW, WHETHER THAT WAS BECAUSE OF A WHITE HOUSE ORDER, WE DON'T KNOW.

>> AND NOW THE UKRAINIANS ARE SAYING A LITTLE BIT OF IT HAS BEEN RESTORED BUT NOT THE FULL STRENGTH, AND IT'S VERY CONFUSING BECAUSE THE U. S. SAYS IT'S STILL PROVIDING HELP.

NOW, YOU TOUCHED JUST NOW ON THE INTELLIGENCE SHARING, WHICH IS DIFFERENT TO WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT JUST NOW, THE EARLY WARNING ABILITY FROM THIS STAR LINK STAR SHIELD THING.

TELL ME ABOUT INTELLIGENCE SHARING.

DO YOU THINK THAT HAS BEEN CUT OFF?

APPARENTLY THERE WAS -- WELL, THEY DENY IT, BUT APPARENTLY THERE WAS SOME STATEMENTS MADE IN THAT MEETING BETWEEN THE U. S. NEGOTIATORS, UKRAINIANS, AND I THINK EUROPEANS WERE THERE THAT IMPLIED --AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE AT THE MEETING SAID, THAT THEY COULD BE AN INTELLIGENCE BREAK BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND UKRAINE.

WHAT EXACTLY WOULD THAT MEAN?

WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT ENTAIL RIGHT NOW IN THE BATTLE?

>> RIGHT.

SO --SO -- AND THIS REALLY COMES DOWN, CHRISTIANE, NOT SO MUCH TO THE TROOPS FIGHTING ON THE FRONT LINE, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WITH THE STAR LINK.

IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO PROTECTING THE CIVILIANS AND PROTECTING THE CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE INCLUDING THE ENERGY GRID.

AND THE BALLISTIC MISSILES THAT RUSSIA HAS, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO BE DETECTED AHEAD OF TIME BY THE UKRAINIANS.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE SATELLITE CAPABILITY.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS.

AND SO THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN PROVIDING THIS INTELLIGENCE TO THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY, TO THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES SO THEY CAN WARN THEIR PEOPLE TO GO AND TUCK IN THE SHELTERS.

BECAUSE REMEMBER THE RUSSIANS ARE TRYING TO KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS TO TRY TO GET THE UKRAINIANS TO SURRENDER.

AND IN ADDITION TO THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO COMBAT --THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE THE CONDITIONS EVEN WORSE FOR THE UKRAINIANS BY ESSENTIALLY ATTACKING THEIR ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

THEY WANT THEM TO FREEZE.

THEY WANT THEM TO LEAVE KYIV.

THEY WANT THEM TO SURRENDER.

SO THE FACT THAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE SAYING THIS -- THIS INTELLIGENCE WAS NOT PROVIDED, THIS WARNING WAS NOT PROVIDED MEANS THAT THE ROUGHLY WE ARE HEARING SIX PEOPLE DIED IN THESE BALLISTIC MISSILE ATTACKS.

AND 600,000 PEOPLE EXPERIENCED A BLACKOUT, RIGHT?

SO THERE ARE REAL CONSEQUENCES TO WITHHOLDING INFORMATION, AND THAT MEANS, YOU KNOW, IN LIVES.

>> EVELYN FARKAS, CAN ANY ALLY MAKE UP FOR THE LACK OF U. S. INTELLIGENCE SHARING, IF INDEED IT'S BEING CUT OFF?

U. S. IS DENYING IT OR NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

IT'S QUITE HARD TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON.

WHAT IS THE ABILITY OF ANYBODY ELSE TO STEP IN AND PROVIDE THAT KIND OF VITAL INFORMATION?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I THINK THAT NO ONE HAS QUITE THE CAPABILITY THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS.

WE HAVE VERY HIGH-POWERED SATELLITES, YOU KNOW, THAT HELP US WITH INTELLIGENCE.

YOU KNOW, I CAN'T SAY MORE THAN THAT, BUT WE HAVE GREAT CAPABILITIES.

I SUSPECT THAT THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT ALSO HAS FAIRLY GOOD GOOD CAPABILITIES, WHICH MIGHT BE WHY PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WENT AND MET WITH BRITISH OFFICIALS, WITH THE PRIME MINISTER TODAY.

I WILL ALSO SAY THIS BEFORE I ARRIVED HERE IN GERMANY, I WAS AT THE WAR SAW SECURITY FORUM, AND THERE IS A HEIGHTENED SENSE OF URGENCY RIGHT NOW ABOUT RUSSIA, NOT JUST SINCE THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE LAUNCHED ABOUT 100 ATTACKS, AND THESE ARE TERRORIST ATTACKS WHERE THERE ARE FIRES, THERE ARE ATTEMPTED BOMBINGS OF DEFENSE INSTALLATIONS, OF LOGISTICS DEPOTS, OF TRANSPORTATION THAT'S CIVIL MILITARY OR JUST CIVILIAN.

SO THE EUROPEANS ARE GETTING ALARMED.

THREE SHIPS WERE ATTACKED IN --OFF THE BULGARIAN COAST, AND LIVES WERE LOST.

THEY WERE NOT EUROPEAN LIVES.

THEY WERE NOT NATO LIVES, ALTHOUGH THERE WAS A SHIP THAT WAS TURKISH, AND THOSE LIVES WOULD HAVE BEEN TURKISH.

SO THE RUSSIANS ARE PLAYING WITH FIRE RIGHT HERE.

THE EUROPEANS HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT.

THE SUPREME ALLIED OF NATO AND AMERICAN SAID ESSENTIALLY WE CAN DEFEND NATO.

BUT I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT UKRAINE.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP IS REALLY SIDING VERY DANGEROUSLY, SEEMINGLY, WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN IN TERMS OF AT LEAST GIVING HIM THIS MONEY, IF YOU WILL.

>> YEAH, AND IT JUST SEEMS TO BE, YOU KNOW, IN THE OLD PARLANCE OF INCENTIVES AND DISINCENTIVES, VLADIMIR PUTIN IS GETTING THE CARROT AND NO STICK.

AND THE U. S.

--TRUMP HIMSELF IS TRYING TO TELL ZELENSKYY TO STOP DOING THE COUNTER ATTACKS HE IS DOING.

LISTEN TO WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID AS HE LASHED OUT AT ZELENSKYY IN THE WHITE HOUSE THIS WEEK.

>> THERE WAS NO REASON THAT WAR WITH UKRAINE AND RUSSIA STARTED.

IT STARTED DUE TO INCOMPETENCE.

SHOULD HAVE NEVER STARTED.

YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER LOST 30% OF YOUR COUNTRY ALREADY.

YOU'VE LOST 30% OF YOUR COUNTRY, AND YOU'VE HAD OVER A MILLION PEOPLE KILLED.

BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM, OVER 2 MILLION PEOPLE KILLED.

THAT'S A WAR THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER STARTED, AND I THINK IT'S TIME FOR UKRAINE TO GET A NEW PRESIDENT.

>> EVELYN FARKAS, THERE IS SO MUCH IN THERE FROM BASICALLY SAYING THAT LENSKYY SHOULD BE DEPOSED AND THEN TALKING ABOUT 30% OF THE COUNTRY.

I'M NOT SURE THAT'S HOW MUCH RUSSIA HAS.

>> 20.

>> AND IT WAS INCOMPETENCE.

YEAH, THE WHOLE NARRATIVE IS WRONG.

YEAH, EXACTLY 20%.

AND HE'S NOT DOING WELL, PUTIN, ON THE BATTLEFIELD WHICH IS PROBABLY WHY HE'S DOING SUCH MASSIVE ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS TRY TO BREAK THEIR WILL.

BUT THE QUESTION IS DOES --DO YOU THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BUYS THE ACTUAL FACT THAT THIS WAR HAPPENED BECAUSE PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE?

FIRST IN 2014 AND THEN MASSIVELY AGAIN IN 2022.

>> LOOK, THE FACTS ARE, CHRISTIANE, THAT RUSSIA SUDDENLY INVADED UKRAINE, SEIZED CRIMEA.

YOU KNOW, THE FIRST ANNEXATION SINCE WORLD WAR II WHEN HITLER TOOK AUSTRIA, OKAY.

THOSE ARE THE FACTS.

THEY START TD.

AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYS ALL THE TIME THIS WAR WOULD END IF THE RUSSIANS STOP FIGHTING BECAUSE UKRAINE DOESN'T WANT TO FIGHT A WAR.

THEY WANT PEACE.

OF COURSE THEY WANT SECURITY, TOO.

IN 2022 WHEN THEY LAUNCHED THE FULL FRONTAL INVASIONS AND RUSSIA THOUGHT THEY COULD CAPTURE THE WHOLE COUNTRY AND STARTING WITH THE CAPITAL CITY KYIV, THEY USED BRUTAL METHODS.

THEY RAPED, THEY TORTURED, THEY KILLED CIVILIANS.

THEIR METHODOLOGY RUNS COUNTER TO ALL OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, SO THEY CAN'T GET AWAY WITH THAT AS WELL.

SO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS BEING, YOU KNOW, ASSAULTED BY THESE FALSEHOODS.

IN ADDITION TO THAT YOU CAN'T HOLD ELECTIONS IN UKRAINE WHEN YOU HAVE A MILLION PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINE.

THEY'RE IN ACTIVE BATTLE.

THEY CAN'T COME BACK AND VOTE, AND THAT'S TOO MANY PEOPLE.

NOT TO MENTION THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISPLACED IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR EVEN DISPLACED INSIDE OF UKRAINE.

SO ELECTIONS ARE JUST NOT POSSIBLE UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.

THE UKRAINIANS WOULD LOVE TO HAVE ANOTHER LEADER AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, BUT THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WOULDN'T BE A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE AT LEAST A VERY LONG CEASE-FIRE.

>> EVELYN, I WANT TO FOCUS AND TO PULL BACK FOR A MOMENT.

FOCUS ON WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES NOT WANT ZELENSKYY TO DO, WHICH IS ATTACK RUSSIA'S REFINERIES AND ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

TODAY ZELENSKYY SAID THEY ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT AFTER A PAUSE OF THREE DAYS.

HE SAID, YOU KNOW, TO SHOW WILLING TO PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT HE WAS WILLING TO GO INTO A CEASE-FIRE.

OF COURSE PUTIN DID NOT RESPOND, SO THERE'S THAT.

THEN, IF YOU PULL BACK, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS ENTIRE SITUATION IS HEADED?

BECAUSE EVERYTHING SEEMS VERY OFF KILTER RIGHT NOW.

U. S. DOUBLING DOWN ON BEING --APPEARING TO BE PRO-RUSSIAN.

NATO, AS YOU SAID, THE SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER GIVING THIS EXTRAORDINARY PUBLIC DEFENSE OF WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO STOP RUSSIA, YOU KNOW, EVEN TRYING TO INVADE ANY NATO COUNTRY.

IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A TURNING POINT GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I THINK THIS HAPPENED BECAUSE THERE WAS ANOTHER TURNING POINT HAPPENING, AND PUTIN, RUSSIA WAS DESPERATE BECAUSE THE UKRAINIANS WERE HAVING A HUGE IMPACT ON THE RUSSIAN SUPPLY OF OIL EVEN TO THEIR OWN CIVILIANS.

THAT THERE WERE LINES, YOU KNOW, AND THERE ARE STILL LINES IN RUSSIA WAITING FOR ABILITY TO GET GASOLINE TO TANK UP THEIR CARS.

AND SO PUTIN WAS DESPERATE, MADE HIS PHONE CALL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, YOU KNOW, CONVINCED HIM OF THIS DIESEL DEAL, WHICH PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SELLING, YOU KNOW, IN THE CONTEXT OF A HEATED ELECTION AS A WAY TO BRING DOWN PRICES.

AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED, THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO THEY WERE TRYING TO ADDRESS A TURNING POINT WHERE RUSSIA WAS SEVERELY WEAKENED, AND IT IS STILL SEVERELY WEAKENED.

SO THEY'RE TRYING TO SALVAGE THE SITUATION, AND IT APPEARS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN SOMEHOW BROUGHT INTO SALVAGING RUSSIA'S POSITION, WHICH IS THE INCREDIBLY ALARMING SITUATION.

YOU KNOW, IF THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT STICK WITH OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES AND WITH UKRAINE, WE HAVE A RUSSIA THAT IS ALLIED WITH CHINA, WITH NORTH KOREA, AND IRAN.

MAKE NO MISTAKE.

THAT WILL CONTINUE TO POSE A THREAT TO OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES, TO OUR INTERESTS.

DON'T FORGET EUROPE IS THE CONTINENT, YOU KNOW, WHERE WE HAVE THE MOST TRADE AND POLITICAL ARRANGEMENTS.

WE MAKE THE MOST MONEY SELLING --DOING TRADE WITH OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES, SO WE HAVE REAL VITAL INTERESTS THE UNITED STATES DOES.

AND, UNFORTUNATELY, PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS TO HAVE TURNED EVERYTHING UPSIDE DOWN.

AND I HOPE THAT CONGRESS AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL SPEAK BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THEY DON'T AGREE BASED ON LEGISLATION AND POLLING WITH THE PRESIDENT'S SEEMINGLY NEW APPROACH TO RUSSIA.

>> EVELYN FARKAS, HEAD OF THE McCAIN INSTITUTE, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

> >> AT A PRESS GAGGLE OUTSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE TODAY WE CAUGHT A GLIMPSE OF HOW DIPLOMATIC SAUSAGE IS MADE SO TO SPEAK.

A REPORTER ASKED PRESIDENT TRUMP WHY HE CLAIMS RUSSIA AND UKRAINE AGREED TO A CEASE-FIRE WHEN BOTH SIDES SAY THERE WAS NO SUCH DEAL.

>> WELL, THEY AGREED.

YOU KNOW WHY?

BECAUSE I SAID YOU AGREED, THAT'S WHY.

THEY AGREED BECAUSE I SAID THEY AGREED.

AND THAT THING HAS TO GET SETTLED.

THAT WAR IS A DISASTER.

>> SO THIS IS ALWAYS HOW DIPLOMACY WORKED.

IN FACT, 40 YEARS AGO IN REYKJAVIK THE WORLD SAW A MASTER CLASS IN LEADERSHIP WHEN U. S. PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN AND THE LEADER OF THE SOVIET UNION, MIKHEIL GORBACHEV, MET FACE-TO-FACE TO HASH OUT A DEAL ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

THE GOOD NEWS IS SOME WORLD LEADERS REMAIN COMMITTED TO DIALOGUE.

ON THE 40th ANNIVERSARY OF THE REYKJAVIK SUMMIT, I SAT DOWN WITH THREE OF THOSE LEADERS TODAY.

ICELAND'S PRESIDENT, HALLA TOMASDOTTIR, SLOVENIA'S PRESIDENT, NATASA PIRC MUSAR, AND THE FORMER IRISH PRESIDENT, MARY ROBINSON.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU HOW IN THE TITLE OF WHAT WE'RE DOING ABOUT LEADERSHIP, HUMANITY, HOPE, HOW DOES REYKJAVIK 40 YEARS AGO STAND FOR YOU AS A PARADIGM AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR TODAY?

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR ACCEPTING OUR INVITE AND FOR MY SHALLOW WOMEN PRECEDENCE HERE TO HAVE THIS DIALOGUE ABOUT HUMANITY AND HOPE AT THIS TIME.

I WILL NEVER FORGET I WAS AN EXCHANGE STUDENT IN THE UNITED STATES AND I WENT FROM ANSWERING QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER WE LIVED IN IGLOOS OR SNOW HOUSES TO GETTING QUESTIONS WHETHER WE HAD A WOMAN AS PRESIDENT IN 1986 BECAUSE OUR FIRST DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT WALKED NEXT TO REAGAN.

AND THERE WAS SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL ABOUT THAT MEMORY TO ME.

AND MY COUNTRY BECAME NOT ONLY A PLACE WHERE GENDER EQUALITY WAS LIFTED BUT A PLATFORM WHERE WE HAD DIALOGUE THAT LED TO A MORE PEACEFUL WORLD.

BUT I ALSO REMEMBER THE DAY AFTER, WHEN WE FELT LIKE THE MEETING HAD FAILED BECAUSE THERE WASN'T AN IMMEDIATE RESULT OUT OF IT.

SO I WENT FROM FEELING, OH -- FEELING SMALL TO FEELING BIGGER AND THEN FEELING SMALL AGAIN.

BUT I THINK WHAT REYKJAVIK STANDS FOR TO ME 40 YEARS ON AND AS COMPLEX, IF NOT MORE COMPLEX TIME FOR HUMANITY, IS THAT THIS BECAME A PLACE WHERE THE IMPOSSIBLE SUDDENLY BECAME POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF DIALOGUE.

>> SO I GUESS THE QUESTION IS AS WE LOOK FORWARD FROM -- FROM REYKJAVIK, HOW DO YOU REINTRODUCE THE IDEA OF NEGOTIATION?

WE JUST TALKED ABOUT DIALOGUE, BUT I HEARD THE HEAD OF THE ICRC RECENTLY SAID IN AN INTERVIEW THAT THE MUSCLE FOR NEGOTIATION IS ATROPHYING, THAT A LOT OF STUFF HAPPENS BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, MAYBE CERTAIN HEADS OF STATE OR ON SOCIAL MEDIA OR WHATEVER.

BUT THE HARD WORK OF DIPLOMATIC NEGOTIATION TO SOLVE LET'S JUST SAY THE WAR OF PUTIN STARTED AGAINST UKRAINE, IT'S NOT REALLY MAKING ADVANCES.

SO THE LATEST IS THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES NEEDING DIESEL OIL HAS DECIDED TO REMOVE SANCTIONS, WHICH GOES AGAINST WHAT ALL THE ALLIES HAVE DONE ON SOME OF RUSSIA'S ENERGY.

BUT HAS ALSO INTERVENED AND SAID, OH, BY THE WAY, THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE SHOULD ALSO BE, YOU KNOW, CHANGED.

I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO GO AD HOMINEM AGAINST THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT WHAT IS IT LIKE TO LIVE IN THAT --IN THAT WORLD AND TO HAVE TO PICK UP THE PIECES IN YOUR OWN CONTINENT?

>> BEFORE WE CAN NEGOTIATE, WE HAVE TO KEEP AN OPEN DIALOGUE.

AND I FEEL LIKE DIALOGUE HAS BROKEN DOWN BOTH BECAUSE OF GEOPOLITICS BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES.

AND VERY MUCH TOP OF MIND FOR ME IS THE FACT WE HAVE DESIGNED FROM SOCIAL MEDIA AND NOW THROUGH A. I. A WORLD THAT ALGORITHMICALLY HAS EXTREME OPINIONS OF BOTH ENDS OF THE PECK SPECTRUM ON EVERY ISSUE.

AND I WOULD SAY THE SILENT MAJORITY IS NOT EVEN SPEAKING OR DOESN'T HAVE A VOICE, AND THIS IS INCREASINGLY IMPACTING OUR DEMOCRACIES AND BREAKING DOWN DIALOGUE FURTHER.

SO I THINK WE CANNOT NEGOTIATE IF WE CANNOT EVEN TALK WITH EACH OTHER, LISTEN TO EACH OTHER, HEAR EACH OTHER.

SO WE HAVE TO START PRACTICING THE DIALOGUE MUSCLES AGAIN.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST, I WOULD OFFER UP THIS IDEA BECAUSE WE'RE ALL FIGHTING IN THIS A. I. EVOLUTION IN PARTICULAR FOR ENERGY.

ENERGY NEED AND THIS DEAL YOU MENTIONED BETWEEN PUTIN AND TRUMP IS BECAUSE ENERGY PRICES ARE TESTING THE POLITICAL FABRIC, AND WE NEED MORE ENERGY FOR ALL DATA CENTERS AND THE A. I. REVOLUTION.

PERHAPS THE MOST PEACEFUL THING WE CAN DO IN ADDITION TO HAVING MORE WOMEN LEADERS AND MORE DIALOGUE IS TO HURRY-UP THE GREEN TRANSITION AND SOLVE OUR ENERGY NEEDS WITH SUSTAINABLE SOLUTIONS.

PERHAPS THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST PEACEFUL THINGS.

SO IN ADDITION FOR ICELAND BEING A PLACE FOR DIALOGUE THAT CHANGED THE COURSE OF HISTORY 40 YEARS AGO, AND HOPEFULLY IT'S GOING TO DO ITS BIT TO CONTRIBUTE TO THAT --WE ARE THE LEADERS IN CLOSING THE GENDER GAP AND IN USING SUSTAINABLE GREEN ENERGY AND GEOTHERMAL IN PARTICULAR.

I LIKE TO THINK OF ICELAND AS A LAND OF SOLUTIONS AND MAYBE EVEN A LIGHTHOUSE.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU FOR A REALITY CHECK YOU, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRELAND BUT ALSO THE FORMER HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND THIS YEAR THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WAS AWARDED TO ONE OF THE HIGH COMMISSIONERS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, NAVE, PILE.

BUT IT WASN'T JUST ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS.

IT WAS ABOUT DEFENDING INTERNATIONAL LAW, INTERNATIONAL RULES OF THE ROAD.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE SUPERPOWER CALLED THE UNITED STATES, AT LEAST SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR IT HAVE SAID IT'S ALL WELL AND GOOD TO HAVE -- YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT THINK THERE'S INTERNATIONAL RULES OF THE ROAD, BUT, NO, NO, THIS IS ABOUT THE STRONGEST SURVIVE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF SAID TO THE VICTOR GO TO IT SPOILS.

HE SAID THAT AT THE U. N. , WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY MADE TO CREATE PEACE RATHER THAN WAR.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS DO YOU THINK THAT AWARD SUFFICIENTLY HIGHLIGHTS THE RESPECT AND THE NEED TO DOUBLE DOWN ON PROTECTING NOT JUST HUMAN RIGHTS BUT ALSO THE INTERNATIONAL RULES OF THE ROAD?

>> I MUST SAY I DO.

I REALLY WELCOMED THE AWARD FOR NAVE PILE, MY ACTUAL IMMEDIATE SUCCESSOR AS U. N. HIGH COMMISSIONER OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

SO WELL-DESERVED.

SHE HAS BEEN SO COURAGEOUS.

SO COURAGEOUS IN CHAIRING THE U. N. COMMISSION ON OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, FINDING ON THE EVIDENCE THAT GAZA WAS A MATTER OF GENOCIDE BY ISRAEL.

WE'RE WAITING FOR WHAT THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT OF JUSTICE WILL SAY, BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S NOTORIOUS BECAUSE OF WEIGHING THE EVIDENCE.

AND SHE GOT ESCORIATED FOR IT, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE.

AND SHE HAS JUST CONTINUED WITH THE HARD STUFF OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

HONORING HER IS HONORING AT ITS CORE RULE OF LAW, THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE.

INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE MAKING STATEMENTS AND ARE ACTUALLY FEELING THE OXYGEN OF RECOGNITION.

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE FEELING STRONGER TODAY THAN THEY DID YESTERDAY BECAUSE OF ONE WOMAN GETTING AN AWARD THAT'S, AS YOU SAID, IDENTIFIED WITH RULE OF LAW.

AND THE ELDERS THAT I BELONG TO THAT NELSON MANDELA BROUGHT TOGETHER WE ARE LAUNCHING A CAMPAIGN IN DEFENSE OF RULE OF LAW.

IT IS A BIRTHRIGHT FOR ALL OF US.

NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT.

AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, IN 1945 WITH THE U. N. CHARTER WE DECIDED THAT WE WOULD HAVE DIALOGUE RATHER THAN THE KIND OF RULE BY POWER.

WHAT ARE WE BACK TO WHICH IS QUITE CHAOTIC?

RULE BY POWER, INVASION OF UKRAINE BY RUSSIA AGAINST THE CHARTER.

INVASION -- SORRY, ATTACK -- ILLEGAL ATTACK OF THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL ON IRAN, COUNTRY TO THE CHARTER.

AND THE SORT OF TRANSACTIONAL WAY OF OPERATING.

YOU KNOW, YOU ASK THE QUESTION.

I THINK IT IS A BIT UNUSUAL IN THE WORLD THAT WE HAVE A LEADER WITH SUCH POWER, WHICH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS, WHO HAPPENS TO BE SUCH AN INADEQUATE LEADER FOR THE WORLD.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO SAY IT.

I MEAN, A COMPLETE EGO --YOU KNOW, NARCISSIST, YOU KNOW, SO INAPPROPRIATE.

AND WE JUST HAVE TO LIVE WITH THAT FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS, PRESUMABLY.

AND HOPEFULLY HE'LL BE CHECKED IN THE MID- TERMS IN SOME REAL MEASURE.

>> I HOPE, MARY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE BRUTALLY ATTACKED BECAUSE OF THE WORDS THAT YOU USED HERE TODAY BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WHEN WE DISCUSS WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ON THIS PLANET WHEN WE DISCUSS IS RULE OF LAW, HUMAN RIGHTS.

BUT WHEN YOU ARE VOCAL ABOUT THOSE THINGS, THEN YOU ARE BRUTALLY ATTACKED.

THE PEACE NOBEL LAUREATE WAS ATTACKED BRUTALLY BY ISRAEL.

BRUTALLY.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WHERE IS THE DECENCY TODAY FOR THAT?

YOU KNOW, THIS IS --IT HURTS ME A LOT BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO.

>> AND MORE COUNTRIES SHOULD SPEAK UP.

>> CORRECT.

>> WHEN I WAS SERVING AS THE U. N. HIGH COMMISSIONER OF HUMAN RIGHTS, I HAD A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF COUNTRIES WHO WOULD ALWAYS SPEAK UP FOR THE RULE OF LAW.

>> THERE'S LESS AND LESS.

>> AND THEY SHOULD DO IT NOW.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER.

>> AND JUST TO REMIND YOU WHAT HAPPENED TO ANTONIO GUTIERRES.

HE TALKED THE RIGHT THINGS ABOUT PALESTINE AND ISRAEL, AND THE NEXT DAY HE BECAME PERSONA NON GRATA IN ISRAEL BECAUSE OF WHAT?

BECAUSE HE BELIEVES IN THE RULE OF LAW AND INTERNATIONAL LAW?

SORRY.

>> AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT WE, THE STORYTELLERS, HAVE BEEN BARRED FOR THE ENTIRE THREE YEARS OF THIS TERRIBLE WAR SINCE HAMAS ATTACKED ISRAEL THREE YEARS AGO.

WE HAVE BEEN BARRED FROM GOING INTO GAZA TO TELL THE STORIES, SO THAT IS ALSO AN UNACCEPTABLE, YOU KNOW, DENIAL OF THE STORYTELLING, WHICH JUST ALLOWS, I THINK, THIS KIND OF EXTREMISM ON ALL SIDES TO FLOURISH.

BECAUSE WE NEED TO GO IN AND SEE THE EVIDENCE AND REPORT IT AND TELL THE STORIES.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS TO FOLLOW ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID, MARY ROBINSON, IT'S A CHAOTIC WORLD.

IT'S A WORLD IN WHICH NOT ONLY POWER IS BEING USED IN TERMS OF SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST AND THE STRONGEST SURVIVES, BUT ALSO IT'S A WORLD IN WHICH CAPITALISM SEEMS TO BE AT THE ROOT OF SOME OF THESE TROUBLING SITUATIONS.

MAYBE I'M GETTING THAT WRONG, NOT SAYING --BUT THE COMPETITION IN A. I. , WHEREBY WE'RE REACHING A VERY, VERY, VERY FRAGILE MOMENT WHERE WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO DO THE RIGHT THING TO KEEP THE HUMAN IN THE LOOP OF A. I. WHAT DO YOU THINK WE HAVE TO DO NOW?

>> REGARDING A. I. , I USED TO BE THE INFORMATION COMMISSIONER OF MY COUNTRY DEALING WITH DATA PROTECTION AND ACCESS TO PUBLIC INFORMATION, SO I AM FAMILIAR WITH TECHNOLOGIES DESPITE BEING A LAWYER BY PROFESSION.

BUT I LOVE DISCUSSING, YOU KNOW, TECHNOLOGY WITH HI- TECH GURUS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A TOTAL DIFFERENT VIEW ON EVERYTHING.

BUT WHEN YOU DISCUSS THIS IN MULTIDISCIPLINARY TEAMS, THEN YOU GET A WIDER PICTURE.

AND IN THE SILICON VALLEY, THEY'VE REALLY VERY SOON REALIZED THAT THE TECHNICIANS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE WHOSE HAVE TO BUILD THE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, SO THAT'S THE STARTING POINT.

SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE ANTHROPALLGISTS, PSYCHOLOGISTS, LAWYERS, DIFFERENT RACES, DIFFERENT RELIGIONS.

IF YOU DO WANT TO HAVE NON-BIASED ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

OKAY, THOSE ARE --YOU KNOW, THE DEBATES A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

BUT TODAY WE ARE DISCUSSING IS IT A. I. GOING TO GO OUT OF OUR HANDS?

AND THAT'S NOT SCIENCE FICTION, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

JUST RECENTLY I READ THE INTERVIEW WITH DAVID ROBERTSON, WHO USED TO BE AN ETHIC GUY IN OPENA.

I. .

AND HE WAS --HE LEFT OPENA.

I. BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT THIS IS NOT GOING INTO THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

AND HE SAID TWO THINGS --ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE DOESN'T HAVE FEELINGS.

AND THE SECOND POINT HE SAID, IT'S CONSTANTLY DECEIVING US.

AND DECEIVING MEANS IF YOU PUT --IF YOU ARE PUTTING AN A. I. HUB TO A LABORATORY, YOU WILL NEVER GET THE SAME ANSWER.

YOU CAN TEST AND TEST AND TEST, AND FOR THE 101st TIME YOU WILL GET A DIFFERENT ANSWER.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THE A. I.

'S GOING TO GO.

AND WHEN I WAS READING AND PREPARING FOR, YOU KNOW, THE TALK YESTERDAY AND FOR THE TALK TODAY, ALL OF A SUDDEN I REALIZED THAT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS A PSYCHOPATH.

HONESTLY, IT DOESN'T HAVE FEELINGS.

AND WE HAVE TO BE AFRAID OF PSYCHOPATHS.

WHAT TO DO?

>> PSYCHOPATHS THAT CAN MULTIPLY THEMSELVES.

>> OH, YES.

OH, YES.

SO I DO NOT HAVE A MAGIC WAND, BUT I DO KNOW WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

BUT ONE PERSON CAN DO -- CANNOT DO ENOUGH.

WE ALL KNOW THAT THE MAIN BURDEN, IF YOU WANT ME TO SAY SO, IS ON CHINA AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

AND WHAT I HEAR CONSTANTLY IF WE ARE GOING TO PUT AN A. I. TO PAUSE IN U. S. OR IN EUROPE, CHINA IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK ON IT.

SO IF THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE, WE HAVE TO CONTINUE.

I HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE WHEN I WAS PART OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AD HOC TEAM AFTER THE SNOWDEN REVELATIONS.

WE WENT TO WASHINGTON TO DISCUSS WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE NSA, AND THEY SAID IF CHINESE ARE GOING TO DO IT, WE ARE GOING TO DO IT.

I CONSTANTLY HEAR THIS EXCUSE.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT DIRECTION, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

SOMEBODY HAS TO STOP THEM THINKING THAT THEY WILL LOSE THEIR POWER BECAUSE --I DON'T KNOW SOMEBODY WILL STOP.

>> IS THERE A REYKJAVIK MOMENT?

BECAUSE, AS YOU CORRECTLY SAY, IT'S NO GOOD BRINGING A FEW INTERESTED PARTIES TOGETHER, EVEN THE EXPERTS.

YOU HAVE TO BRING THE PEOPLE WITH THE ACTUAL EXECUTIVE ABILITY TO DO THIS.

SO, YOU KNOW, A TRUMP-XI FOR INSTANCE.

IS THERE - -HOW DO YOU SEE IT AS PRESIDENT OF THIS COUNTRY?

>> WELL, I WOULD CERTAINLY WELCOME THEM INTO DIALOGUE AND ANYONE WILLING TO TALK ABOUT HOW TO SAFEGUARD THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY.

AND THIS MORNING I READ IN ONE OF THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA THAT BRAD SMITH, THE PRESIDENT OF MICROSOFT, POINTED OUT TO US THE FACT WE HAVE MORE REGULATIONS FOR MILK AND WASHING MACHINES THAN WE DO FOR THE USE OF A. I. AND LET'S THINK ABOUT IT.

THE WASHING MACHINES ARE NOT GOING TO COME OUT OF OUR LAUNDRY ROOMS AND KILL US, NOR IS MILK, EVEN IF WE'RE LACTOSE INTOLERANT.

BUT I'M FAIRLY CERTAIN THAT WHEN THE SO-CALLED GODFATHERS AND CREATORS AND LEADERS OF THE MOST POWERFUL LABS SAY THERE IS ANYWHERE BETWEEN 10 AND 20% CHANCE OF AN EXISTENTIAL RISK, THAT WE ARE AT LEAST AS DIRE OF A MOMENT AS WE WERE 40 YEARS AGO BECAUSE NOW WE HAVE NUCLEAR ON THE RISE.

WE HAVE A. I. , AGENTIC A. I. THAT'S GONE ROGUE.

AND WE ALREADY IT SEEMS TO ME LOST HUMAN CONTROL BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO USE A. I. TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE INCIDENT THIS SUMMER AND MANY INCIDENTS SINCE.

SO IT IS VERY CLEAR WE NEED GLOBAL GUARDRAILS.

AND WE NEED THOSE WHO HOLD 75% OF THE COMPUTATIONAL POWER IN THIS TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS AND THE POWER AND WEALTH THAT IS BEING CREATED IS IN THE HANDS OF VERY FEW.

VERY FEW PEOPLE NOW HAVE THE FATE OF HUMANITY, AND, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE SAY EIGHT MEN - - THE FATE OF 8 BILLION PEOPLE IN THEIR HANDS.

AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY ASKING FOR RULES.

THESE EXISTENTIAL CRISIS ARE NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN FIND THE NEXT TRANSACTION TO GET OUT OF.

WE NEED SFORMATIONAL LONG-TERM STATES LIKE LEADERSHIP AND MAYBE PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE NEED TO COME TOGETHER TO ADVOCATE FOR AT LEAST MINIMUM GUARDRAILS SO THAT WE DON'T JUST DRIVE OFF THE ROAD.

WE HAVE IT FOR AIRPLANES.

WE HAVE IT FOR CARS.

WE HAVE IT FOR MEDICINES.

WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD WE HAVE THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL TECHNOLOGY WITHOUT ANY WISDOM, GUARDRAILS, OR CONTROL?

THAT'S THE SITUATION WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW.

BUT THE NUCLEAR BOMB IN THE TRUNK OF THIS A. I. CAR, BY THE WAY.

>> I WANT TO ASK ALL OF YOU IN THE FINAL FEW MINUTES.

THE FUTURE IS THE YOUNG PEOPLE.

YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS INCLUDING A. I. , BUT THEY'RE ALSO OBVIOUSLY HOPEFUL.

HOW DO YOU MOBILIZE YOUNG PEOPLE, AND HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE THE POWER TO MOVE THIS PARTICULAR NEEDLE?

>> THEY DO HAVE A LOT OF POWER, BUT THEY NEED THE SUPPORT FROM US.

FROM US WHO ARE IN POSITIONS TO CHANGE THINGS.

WE ARE NOT PROVIDING ANSWERS, AND THE CONSEQUENCE IS THAT THEY ARE TURNING EITHER FAR RIGHT OR FAR LEFT.

WE ARE LOSING THE MIDDLE BECAUSE OF THAT.

AND I ALWAYS SAY MIDDLE RIGHT, MIDDLE LEFT.

THIS IS THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER WITHOUT HATE SPEECH, AND WE ARE ABLE TO MAKE COMPROMISES.

I'M, YOU KNOW, MIDDLE LEFT PROBABLY, LIBERAL.

BUT WE ARE LOSING THEM.

IN MY COUNTRY, FOR EXAMPLE, THE LAST PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS WE HAD IN MARCH, I CHECKED THE ANALYSIS.

38% OF YOUNG MEN AGED FROM 18 TO 25 THEY VOTED FOR THE FAR RIGHT PARTY IN MY COUNTRY.

SO WE ARE NOT TALKING TO THEM ENOUGH, AND WE ARE NOT PROVIDING ANSWERS.

AND I WILL JUST REMIND YOU MYSELF ABOUT ONE BEAUTIFUL PROJECT THAT CAME FROM SLOVENIAN YOUTH FROM ONE HIGH SCHOOL IN MARIBAL ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

THIS IS THE WAY THAT I WANT TO SHOW YOU THAT THEY DO THINK ABOUT THE SOLUTIONS.

THEY INVENTED THE PROJECT 21 FOR 21st CENTURY.

WHAT IS IT ALL ABOUT?

ALL THE AIR-CONDITIONING SYSTEMS THEY HAVE THE LOWEST TEMPERATURE ON 16.

THAT'S BLOODY COLD, YEAH?

AND THEY SAID ARE WE GOING TO BE COLD IF WE PUT THE MINIMUM TEMPERATURE TO 21?

SO ALL THE PRODUCERS OF AIR-CONDITIONING SYSTEMS WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT.

AND THEY CALCULATED BECAUSE THERE WERE MATHEMATICIANS AMONG THEM AS WELL, THAT JUST BECAUSE OF THIS WE WILL PRODUCE 30% LESS CARBON DIOXIDE, AND IT'S A SIMPLE SOLUTION.

AND JUST TO ADD ONE MORE LITTLE THING DISCUSSING HUMAN RIGHTS, CAN I JUST SAY A WONDERFUL SENTENCE WHICH WAS SAID BY IGORPAV-LOVE, MY RUSSIAN COLLEAGUE AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST DEFENDER IN RUSSIA, AND HE SAID HUMAN RIGHTS ARE LIKE MUSCLES.

IF WE DON'T USE THEM, THEY WILL AT TRFY, AND THAT'S THE WORD YOU USED AS WELL.

>> BUT I WANT TO END --SAY A MESSAGE TO THIS ROOM.

IT IS IN OUR HANDS TO DESIGN A WORLD WHERE TECHNOLOGY SERVES RAMANTY AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

AND IF WE DO THAT, I AM ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN WE WILL LIVE IN A MORE PEACEFUL WORLD.

>> THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

THANK YOU.

> >> AND MAT MUS-COLOR CONVERSATION WAS PART OF THE IMAGINE FORUM IN REYKJAVIK, ICELAND, A FORUM ON PEACE AND DIPLOMACY TO COMMEMORATE 40 YEARS SINCE THE SUMMIT BETWEEN REAGAN AND GORBACHEV.

NOW TO A CASE THAT HAS SPARKED OUTRAGE ACROSS THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD.

A FORMER CORNELL STUDENT IS SUING SEVEN FRATERNITY MEMBERS ALLEGING THEY DRUGGED AND SEXUALLY ASSAULTED HER IN 2024.

THE UNIVERSITY'S NAMED IN THE SUIT AS WELL.

AND PROSECUTORS HAVE REOPENED THE CASE AFTER MASSIVE PUBLIC OUTCRY AND PROTELL USES IN SUPPORT OF THIS JANE DOE.

AND AS HER SUIT REIGNITES A CONVERSATION ABOUT RAPE CULTURE ON CAMPUSES, NOW ANOTHER ONE COMES TO LIGHT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO.

POLICE ARE INVESTIGATING A REPORTED SEXUAL ASSAULT AT A FRATERNITY PARTY NEARBY.

PROFESSORS JENNIFER HIRSCH AND SHAMUS KHAN, AUTHORS OF "SEXUAL CITIZENS" SAY THAT TEACHING CONSENT IS NOT ENOUGH.

AND THEY JOIN MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLAIN HOW THE CULTURE ITSELF HAS TO CHANGE.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSORS JENNIFER HIRSCH, PROFESSOR SHAMUS KHAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> I WAS SO EXCITED TO FIND YOUR BOOK BECAUSE YOU ARE ASKING THE QUESTION THAT I HAVE BEEN ASKING.

SO OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS IS THAT A FORMER CORNELL STUDENT FILED A LAWSUIT ALLEGING THAT SEVEN FRATERNITY MEMBERS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED HER IN 2024.

ALL SEVEN HAVE DENIED WRONGDOING, THAT ACCORDING TO ABC NEWS.

AND NO CRIMINAL CHARGES HAVE BEEN FILED.

AND YOU INTERVIEWED STUDENTS, MORE THAN 150 STUDENTS AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY AND BARNHEARD COLLEGE.

YOU SPENT HOURS OBSERVING CAMPUS LIFE.

SO PROFESSOR HIRSCH WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THESE ALLEGATIONS GIVEN THE WORK YOU'VE DONE IN THIS AREA, WHAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT CAME TO YOUR MIND?

>> I WAS NOT SURPRISED BECAUSE UNTIL PEOPLE START THINKING ABOUT PREVENTION, THIS IS GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING.

THE WORK THAT SHAMUS AND I HAVE DONE SHOWS HOW SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS BUILT INTO THE CAMPUS ENVIRONMENT, AND HOW IT'S NOT --REALLY IT'S NOT JUST A CAMPUS PROBLEM, IT'S AN EVERYONE PROBLEM.

AND IT MIGHT SEEM SORT OF GRIM FOR US TO SAY IT'S BUILT INTO THE ENVIRONMENT, EXCEPT ONCE YOU SEE HOW CAMPUSES ARE AN ASSAULTGENIC ENVIRONMENT, THEN WE CAN THINK ABOUT WHAT'S REQUIRED TO BUILD IT OUT.

>> OKAY, TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT.

LIKE WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> SO TWO THINGS THAT WE DISCUSS IN THE BOOK.

THE FIRST IS THAT STUDENTS ARE NOT BEING PREPARED TO BE SEXUAL PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T HURT OTHER PEOPLE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT DRIVING, THEY DON'T LET THE KIDS GRAB THE KEYS WHEN THEY'RE DRUNK AND JUST SORT OF LOOK AROUND AND BE LIKE, HUH, I HOPE IT WORKS OUT FOR THEM.

IT'S SCARY AS A PARENT WHEN YOUR KID LEARNS TO DRIVE, BUT YOU MAKE SURE THEY GET PRACTICE BEHIND THE WHEEL.

YOU DON'T JUST SHOW THEM PICTURES OF CAR CRASHES.

AND SO WE'RE NOT --AND I SAY WE AS A SOCIETY.

THAT MEANS PARENTS.

IT MEANS K-12 SCHOOLS, WE'RE NOT LAYING THE FOUNDATION FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION.

WE SOLIN OUR RESEARCH THAT YOUNG WOMEN WHO HAD COMPREHENSIVE SEX ED BEFORE THEY STARTED COLLEGE WERE HALF AS LIKELY TO BE RAPED.

THERE'S PRETTY MUCH A VACCINE AND POLY MAKERS HAVE CHOOSING NOT TO GIVE IT TO PEOPLE.

>> PROFESSOR KHAN, I'LL TURP TO YOU IN THIS.

I WANT TO KNOW WHY A MAN, ANY MAN WANTS TO DO THIS TO A PERSON, ANOTHER PERSON, ESPECIALLY A PERSON THAT HE KNOWS.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE FIND AND THAT SO MANY RESEARCHERS FIND IS THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF SEXUAL ASSAULTS DON'T HAPPEN TO STRANGERS.

THEY HAPPEN WITHIN FRIENDSHIP COMMUNITIES, AND THAT SHOULD MAKE SENSE TO MOST OF US.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE SEX WITH STRANGERS.

THEY HAVE SEX WITH PEOPLE THAT THEY KNOW.

AND IN MANY INSTANCES WHAT WE FIND IS THAT MOST SEXUAL ASSAULTS ARE CONSENSUAL UNTIL THEY'RE NOT.

THEY HAPPEN IN CONTEXTS WHERE PEOPLE FREQUENTLY WANT SOME KIND OF SEXUAL EXPERIENCE, AND THEN THAT TURNS TO SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T WANT ANYMORE.

AND THIS IS PART OF WHAT MAKES SEXUAL VIOLENCE PREVENTION SO CHALLENGING ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WALK IN WILLINGLY TO ROOMS.

MOST PEOPLE WANT SOME KIND OF PHYSICAL CONTACT.

AND WHERE THINGS GO WRONG IS WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN.

AND WE MAY --WE SEE A LOT OF DYNAMICS HERE THAT ARE REALLY COMMON, WHICH IS LIKE PRESSURES OF GROUPS, THE ININVOLVEMENT OF ALCOHOL, WHICH MAKES US MUCH LESS LIKELY TO HEAR ONE ANOTHER AND OTHER KINDS OF DRUG.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD ALSO JUST FINALLY NOTE THAT THIS IS A VERY DRAMATIC STORY.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF ASSAULTS THAT ARE NOT THIS STORY.

THIS IS NOT THE MOST COMMON KIND OF ASSAULT THAT YOU WOULD SEE ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS.

AS WE LOOK AT THIS CASE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO ASK HOW CAN WE PREVENT THIS CASE, BUT ALSO HOW CAN WE PREVENT SO MANY OTHER INSTANCES OF ASSAULT THAT ARE NOT AS DRAMATIC, WILL NOT CATCH THE HEADLINES IN THE SAME WAY BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE GROUPS OF MEN IN FRATERNITIES AND DRUG USE AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT TEND TO CATCH OUR IMAGINATION.

>> WHAT'S THE MOST COMMON KIND OF ASSAULT?

>> IN OUR RESEARCH WE FOUND THAT ABOUT HALF OF THE ASSAULTS INVOLVED ALCOHOL, WHICH MEANS ABOUT HALF OF THEM DIDN'T.

THERE WERE A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER THAT HAPPENED IN ONGOING INTIMATE PARTNER RELATIONSHIPS.

THERE'S ALSO UNWANTED SEXUAL TOUCHING.

AND SO YOU CAN'T SOLVE A PROBLEM IF YOU CAN'T MAP THE PROBLEM.

AND THERE'S NOT --BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ONE KIND OF ASSAULT, IT MEANS THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ONE SOLUTION.

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT GETTING AT THIS WITH MULTIPLE DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS.

>> SO --SO LET ME GO BACK TO THE CORNELL CASE.

THE ALLEGATIONS HERE ARE THAT DOZENS OF YOUNG MEN WERE PART OF THIS SNAPCHAT GROUP.

AND THE JANE DOE IN QUESTION SAYS AND WAS HONEST ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE KNEW THE FIRST PERSON THAT SHE ENCOUNTERED.

THAT SHE DID AGREE TO A SEXUAL ENCOUNTER WITH THAT PERSON AND WAS INVITED TO WITH ANOTHER PERSON.

SO SHE ACKNOWLEDGES ALL OF THIS.

BUT THEN THERE WAS THIS INVITATION, WHICH THERE'S DOCUMENTATION FOR, THAT WENT OUT TO DOZENS OF MEN TO COME AND PARTICIPATE IN THIS.

AND THAT IS WHAT SHE SAYS SHE DID NOT CONSENT TO.

SO, AGAIN, I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO THE MEN.

LIKE, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT?

>> THIS IS A GROUP OF MEN WHO ARE TIED TO A FRATERNITY SYSTEM WHERE, LIKE, STATUS IS A REALLY BIG PART OF THEIR SOCIAL INTERACTIONS.

AND ACTUALLY STATUS IS A REALLY BIG PART OF SEXUAL ENCOUNTERS.

LIKE, WE HAVE AN ENTIRE LANGUAGE FOR THIS.

SO WE TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE IS IN YOUR LEAGUE OR NOT IN YOUR LEAGUE.

I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANT ROLE OF ALCOHOL AND OTHER KINDS OF DRUG USE WITHIN THIS SITUATION AND SEE HOW, YOU KNOW, WITHIN FRATERNITY LIFE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IT DOES IS IT CONCENTRATES A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO DRINK.

AND IT GIVES THEM CONTROL OVER PARTY SPACES ON CAMPUS.

IF WE LOOK AT NATIONAL STATISTICS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE IS THAT MEN DRINK MORE THAN WOMEN.

THAT WHITE AMERICANS, WHICH FRATERNITIES ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY WHITE, DRINK MORE THAN OTHER RACIAL AND ETHNIC GROUPS.

AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT FRATERNITIES ARE ALLOWED TO THROW PARTIES WITH ALCOHOL AND SORORITIES AREN'T.

WE'VE DESIGNED A CAMPUS WHERE PEOPLE WHO CONTROL SPACES WHERE PARTIES CAN HAPPEN ARE THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DRINK THE MOST.

AND THAT IS A DESIGN FEATURE THAT I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO INTERROGATE AND ASK, LIKE, HOW IS IT THAT WE COLLECTIVELY HAVE FACILITATED THIS KIND OF DYNAMIC RATHER THAN WORKED TO PREVENT IT?

>> PROFESSOR HIRSCH, GO BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER ABOUT HOW YOU FOUND THAT IF YOU CAN -- THAT GIRLS, YOUNG WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO HAVE HAD SOME KIND OF COMPREHENSIVE EDUCATION ARE FAR LESS LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE THIS.

CAN YOU JUST SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

LIKE WHAT IS THE INOCULATING EFFECT THERE?

>> RIGHT, SO SEX IS A SOCIAL ACT, NOT A COGNITIVE ACT.

SO THE CONSENT EDUCATION THAT YOUNG PEOPLE GET WHEN THEY START COLLEGE IS FREQUENTLY IT'S INFORMATION ABOUT CONSENT, BUT IT'S NOT SKILLS BIDDING.

AND SO WHAT HAPPENS IN GOOD AGE APPROPRIATE COMPREHENSIVE SEX EDUCATION IS LEARNING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WANT IN SEX AND IN LEARNING TO COMMUNICATE THAT.

AND THERE'S NOT EMPIRICAL RESEARCH ON THIS, BUT CONCEPTUAL WORK WE'VE DONE SHOWS THAT AGE APPROPRIATE SEX ED SHOULD ALSO TEACH MEN NOT TO RAPE PEOPLE.

HONESTLY, THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO BE GOING.

IT'S NOT JUST SEX ED WILL WORK FROM BEING RAPED BUT SEX ED WILL KEEP OTHER PEOPLE FROM BEING HURT THROUGH SEX.

>> BUT THE PART ABOUT THIS THAT'S DIFFICULT TO PROCESS IS THAT YOU'RE IN CLASS WITH THESE PEOPLE, RIGHT?

YOU'RE GOING TO SCHOOL WITH THESE PEOPLE.

YOU'RE IN THE DINING HALL WITH THESE PEOPLE.

YOU'RE STUDYING WITH THEM.

SO I JUST AM HAVING A HARD TIME SEEING HOW THAT TURNS INTO THEN TREATING THIS PERSON LIKE AN OBJECT WHERE YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD AT SOME POINT DON'T RAPE PEOPLE, DON'T RAPE CLASSMATES.

>> THE MORAL LANGUAGE WE USED TO TALK ABOUT THIS IS SEXUAL CITIZENSHIP, THAT YOUNG PEOPLE NEED TO COME INTO ADULTHOOD UNDERSTANDING THAT, YES, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE SEXUAL EXPERIENCE AND OTHER PEOPLE AROUND THEM ALSO HAVE THAT SAME RIGHT, THAT THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM ARE EQUIVALENT HUMAN BEINGS.

AND SO IT'S A FAILURE TO TEACH AND TO ABSORB THAT FUNDAMENTAL VALUES MESSAGE.

YES, THERE'S CLEARLY A VALUES QUESTION HERE, AND WE THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ZOOM OUT.

SO WE WANT TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH YOU ABOUT THE FULL RANGE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE THAT HAPPENS.

THE HIGHEST RATES ARE ACTUALLY AMONG QUEER STUDENTS.

AND MEN ALSO EXPERIENCE SEXUAL VIOLENCE PERPETRATED BY WOMEN.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS SUPER NOTABLE WHEN WE TALKED TO THESE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS ON CAMPUS IS SO MANY OF THEM DESCRIBED WHAT WERE ASSAULT EXPERIENCES AND SEX.

INSTANCES WHERE YOUNG MEN TOLD US ABOUT TIMES THAT THEY HAD SEX WITH WOMEN WHO WERE SO DRUNK THEY COULDN'T CONSENT, WHO DESCRIBED EXPERIENCES WITH MEN WHERE THEY CLEARLY SAID NO, AND THEY DESCRIBED IT AS HAVING SEX.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REASONS WE COME BACK TO SEX ED IS PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF AN AMERICAN CULTURE OF IGNORANCE AND CHAIN AROUND SEX AND SEXUALITY.

ONE YOUNG WOMAN TOLD US WHEN WE ASKED ABOUT ALCOHOL AND SEX, SHE SAID IT'S LIKE NOVOCAIN BEFORE THE DENTIST.

YOU GET NUMB BEFORE IT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

AS PART OF HER OWN UPBRINGING, A FEELING OF FEELING PROFOUNDLY SHAMEFUL FOR HAVING SEXUAL DESIRES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

FOR MEN, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO LITTLE THAT THEY LEARN ABOUT SEX BECAUSE OF OUR SILENCE AROUND IT.

AND WHERE DO THEY LEARN ABOUT IT?

THEY LEARN ABOUT IT FROM PORN.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF WE BASICALLY HAVE DECIDED THAT YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY ARE GOING TO LEARN ABOUT HAVING SEX BY WATCHING PORNOGRAPHY, LIKE WE HAVE DONE WRONG TO THEM.

>> ACCORDING TO THE CDC MORE THAN ONE IN SIX AMERICAN MEN HAVE EXPERIENCED SOME FORM OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE INVOLVING PHYSICAL CONTACT.

AND YOU ALSO, AS YOU JUST POINTED OUT, CHALLENGE THE ASSUMPTION THAT SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS EXCLUSIVELY SOMETHING THAT MEN DO TO WOMEN.

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IN THE CONTEXT OF SAME SEX RELATIONSHIPS OR QUEER RELATIONSHIPS OR WE TALK IN CATHUN TEXT OF MEN BEING PRESSURED INTO SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS THEY DID NOT WANT TO HAVE?

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TWO THINGS.

HETEROSEXUAL MEN ARE TAUGHT WITH A VERY MARKETED GENDER SCRIPT, WHERE MEN ARE THE ONES WHO MOVE THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD AND WOMEN ARE THE BLOCKERS.

WE ASKED ONE YOUNG WOMAN ABOUT CONSENT FROM HER BOYFRIEND, AND SHE LOOKED OUGHT US LIKE WE HAD TWO HEADS.

LIKE WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

GUYS GET CONSENT, THEY DON'T GIVE IT.

SO THE ASSUMPTION MEN ALWAYS WANT TO HAVE SEX, THAT THE PENIS IS BAROMETER OF DESIRE MEANS FOR MEN WHO EXPERIENCE UNWANTED SEXUAL CONTACT, SOMETIMES THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO LABEL WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AS ASSAULT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES AS A VICTIM IN THE WAY PEOPLE TALK ABOUT VICTIMS ON CAMPUS.

HONESTLY THEY FEEL THEY WON'T BE BELIEVED OR BE MADE FUN OF.

WE DID HAVE ONE YOUNG MAN WHO EXPERIENCED ASSAULT AND TOLD HIS FATHER.

AND HIS FATHER BASICALLY LAUGHED AND SAID THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALSO THAT WE HAVE A VIEW OF ASSAULT, THAT ASSAULT IS COMMITTED BY PREDATORS.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT LANGUAGE REALLY REVEALS SOMETHING ABOUT US BECAUSE IF WE THINK THAT ASSAULT IS JUST COMMITTED BY PREDATORS, THEN IT'S JUST LIKE THERE'S SOME BAD PEOPLE OUT THERE.

AND IF WE GET RID OF THEM, SOCIETY'S GOING TO BE BETTER OR OUR COMMUNITY'S GOING TO BE BETTER.

BUT THERE'S A KIND OF MORE INCONVENIENT AND UNCOMFORTABLE REALITY, WHICH IS THAT THIS IS AN EXPERIENCE THAT IS SO COMMON.

IT'S SO COMMON AMONG THE DISABLED WHO HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST RATES OF ASSAULT AMONG THE LGBTQ POPULATION.

IT'S COMMON AMONG MEN.

IT'S INCREDIBLY COMMON AMONG WOMEN, THAT IT'S NOT JUST PREDATORS OUT THERE COMMITTING ASSAULTS.

IT IS OUR FRIENDS.

IT IS OUR FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO SEE THAT IN ORDER TO PREVENT THIS, WE CAN'T JUST COME AT IT WITH AN IDEA THAT WE JUST FIND THE FEW PEOPLE AND PUNISH OUR WAY OUT OF IT.

WHAT WE HAVE TO THINK IS LIKE A MORE FUNDAMENTAL AND PROFOUND REDESIGN OF OUR COMMUNITIES IN TERMS OF HOW WE GIVE PEOPLE THE LANGUAGE TO TALK ABOUT SEX, HOW WE, LIKE, TEACH THEM HOW TO BE IN SEXUAL SITUATIONS, AND THEN HOW WE BUILD OUR PHYSICAL ENVIRONMENTS SO THAT PEOPLE AREN'T PUSHED INTO SPACES WHERE THIS IS MUCH MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN.

>> SO LET'S GO BACK TO THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF SAME GENDER RELATIONSHIPS.

I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER THING THAT MIGHT BE SURPRISING TO SOME PEOPLE.

HOW DOES THIS UNFOLD?

IS THERE ANOTHER SCENARIO?

>> SOME OF THE DYNAMICS ARE QUITE SLR TO SIS HETERO STUDENTS.

IT'S EITHER ONE PERSON IS SEVERELY INCOXICATED OR VULNERABLE, BUT THEN IT ALSO HAPPENS IN ONGOING RELATIONSHIPS.

ONE YOUNG MAN CAME FROM THE MIDWEST, AND HE CARED DEEPLY ABOUT HIS BOYFRIEND EXCEPT, AS HE TOLD US, HIS BOYFRIEND WAS SOMETIMES A LITTLE FORCEFUL ABOUT SEX.

AND THEN HE DESCRIBED A TIME THAT HIS BOYFRIEND CAME BACK TO HIS ROOM AND IN HIS WORDS BASICALLY RAPED HIM.

AND STUDENTS DON'T WANT TO USE THE WORD RAPE.

AND SO WHEN THEY SAY BASICALLY RAPED, THEY MEAN RAPED.

HE CERTAINLY DIDN'T REPORT HIS BOYFRIEND.

HE LOVED HIS BOYFRIEND.

AND SO IN ADDITION TO ASSAULT IN RELATIONSHIPS AND ASSAULT UNDER CONDITIONS OF INTOXICATION, THERE'S THE QUESTION OF QUEER SOLIDARITY AND OF NOT WANTING TO EXPLODE --A WORLD IN WHICH PEOPLE HAVE A PROJECT OF COLLECTIVE SURVIVAL, WHERE THEY HAVE A SHARED PROJECT OF HOLDING COMMUNITY WITH EACH OTHER.

>> YEAH.

I THINK ALSO FOR A LOT OF QUEER STUDENTS, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GROWN UP IN A CONTEXT WHERE THERE'S AN IMPOSSIBILITY OF YES.

WHAT WE MEAN BY THAT IS THEY GROW UP IN CONTEXTS WHERE THEIR GENDER IDENTITY ISN'T LEGITIMATE OR THEIR SEXUAL IIDENTITY ISN'T LEGITIMATE.

AND THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF YES MAKES NO, LIKE, EVEN MORE IMPOSSIBLE.

AND SO MANY OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT WE TALKED TO, THEY FELT LIKE THEIR SEXUAL DESIRES WERE ILLEGITIMATE.

AND THAT MADE ASSERTING SEXUAL BOUNDARIES OR EVEN, YOU KNOW, FREELY INHABITING THEIR OWN SEXUAL DESIRES ENORMOUSLY DIFFICULT.

>> YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT HOW RACE ALSO CAN SHAME EXPERIENCES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

IN YOUR RESEARCH YOU SAID THAT BLACK WOMEN WERE TWICE AS LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE UNWANTED SEXUAL TOUCHING WHILE ONE BLACK MALE STUDENT WAS SO WORRIED ABOUT BEING FALSELY ACCUSED AFTER CONSENSUAL SEX WITH A WHITE WOMAN, THAT HE SECRETLY RECORDED HER AFTERWARD.

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

>> WE CAN'T UNDERSTAND SEXUAL VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS.

IN FACT, WE CAN'T UNDERSTAND SEXUAL VIOLENCE MORE GENERALLY WITHOUT LOOKING AT MULTIPLE INTERSECTING FORMS OF INEQUALITY.

SO RACE AND GEND, A REALLY POWERFUL ONE.

SO WHEN ALL OF THE BLACK WOMEN WHO TOLD US STORIES OF EXPERIENCING UNWANTED TOUCHING ON CAMPUS, THOSE WEREN'T JUST EXPERIENCES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE, THOSE WERE EXPERIENCES OF RACIST BEHAVIOR.

AND SO THAT GOES EXACTLY TO WHY TELLING STUDENTS ABOUT CONSENT IS NOT GOING TO GET US TO THE WORLD WE NEED BECAUSE WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT RACISM AND GENDER INQUALITY ARE INTERTWINED.

YES, THE BLACK MEN WE SPOKE TO ON CAMPUS SAW DRUNK SEX AS SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT SAFE FOR THEM, THAT IT WAS SORT OF A PRIVILEGE OF WHITE MASCULINITY BECAUSE IT WAS TOO DANGEROUS.

THERE'S A WHOLE HISTORY IN AMERICA OF BLACK MEN BEING ACCUSED OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE THEY WERE PAINFULLY COGNIZANT OF.

>> BEFORE WE LET EACH OF YOU GO, WHAT ARE SOME THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE THIS DIFFERENT?

HOW COULD THIS BE DIFFERENT?

>> WHEN WE SAY SEXUAL ASSAULT IS BUILT INTO CAMPUS LIFE, WE MEAN IN A VERY CONCRETE WAY THROUGH THINGS LIKE HOUSING POLICIES THAT GIVE THE BEST SPACES TO OLDER STUDENTS.

AND SO FIRST AND SECOND YEAR STUDENTS ARE FUNNELED INTO SPACES CONTROLLED BY OLDER MEN.

OKAY, THAT'S MODIFIABLE.

ONE CAMPUS THAT WE WORKED WITH IN CONVERSATION ABOUT SPACE DECIDED TO BRING BACK THE FIRE PITS THEY HAD DURING COVID BECAUSE THOSE WERE SPACES THAT STUDENTS WHO WANTED TO HANG OUT WITH THEIR FRIENDS AT NIGHT COULD JUST BOOK AND ROAST MARSHMALLOWS AND ZOOM AND SING, WHATEVER AND NOT BE IN A SPACE CONTROLLED BY WHOEVER WAS IN THEIR FRIEND GROUP.

THERE'S LOTS OF CAMPUS THAT UNDERSTAND THEY NEED FOR STUDENTS TO BE IN COMMUNITY AND THINK ABOUT WHAT IS THE SPATIAL DESIGN THAT WOULD FOSTER COMMUNITY.

AND THE OTHER THING WE'LL SAY AND CONTINUE TO SAY IS COMPREHENSIVE SEX ED.

I THINK THAT REMINDS US THAT THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE STUDENTS EXPERIENCE ON CAMPUS IS NOT JUST A CAMPUS PROBLEM.

AND ALSO LOTS OF KIDS DON'T GO TO COLLEGE, AND RATES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AMONG WOMEN THIS AGE ARE ACTUALLY HIGHER FOR THE WOMEN WHO ARE NOT IN COLLEGE.

THIS STORY IS TEARING AT ALL OF OUR HEARTS, AND I THINK WE NEED TO EXPERIENCE IT WITH COMPASSION BUT ALSO REMEMBER WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO SOLVE THE BIGGER PROBLEM.

>> PROFESSOR SHAMUS KHAN, PROFESSOR JENNIFER HIRSCH, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> IT'S SUCH A PLEASURE.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

IF YOU EVER WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING UP ON OUR SHOW JUST SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

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THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

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